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The Empire Strikes Back


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43 replies to this topic

#1 of 44 OFFLINE   Adam Sanchez

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Posted August 14 2001 - 03:15 AM

I am sure you will think I am nuts for asking something like this... I should know. But what the hell.

I was watching ESB tonight and it's been awhile. Something in that movie I never fully understood and thought it was about time I get it cleared up with help form you fine people. Posted Image

After Luke's first day of training on Dagobah, he goes into that cave and fights (Or it is imagined?) Darth Vader whom he beheads and then the face ends up being Lukes... what is that whole scene about? I've never really got it. Did he really even fight anything in that cave?

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#2 of 44 OFFLINE   Rob Gillespie

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Posted August 14 2001 - 03:25 AM

When Luke asks "What's in there?", to which Yoda replies "Only what you take with you", it's implying that three is some kind of personality test for aspiring Jedis. Luke sees what he thinks is Vader, but his own face is behind the mask. Is this saying that he is becoming like Vader? Or is it saying that Luke is indellibly linked to old Darth? Probably a bit of both, as Luke was at the point in his training where he could be swayed very easiler, and also because he turned out to be Darth's son.
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#3 of 44 OFFLINE   Iain Lambert

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Posted August 14 2001 - 03:26 AM

He was warned that the only thing in the cave was what he took in with him. He ignored Yoda's reassurances and took a weapon anyway, and so confronted his own eagerness for a violent solution. Basically its a whole philosophical thing about becoming the enemy you attack. Plus of course it points to the way that his father's fall was due to the same weakness.
mmm, thats odd.

#4 of 44 OFFLINE   Iain Lambert

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Posted August 14 2001 - 03:26 AM

Obviously Rob is a faster typer than me...
mmm, thats odd.

#5 of 44 OFFLINE   Rob Gillespie

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Posted August 14 2001 - 03:28 AM

It's not the typing, it's just how fast you hit the 'Post Reply' button. There's a knack to it Posted Image
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#6 of 44 OFFLINE   Iain Lambert

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Posted August 14 2001 - 03:33 AM

Aaah, that will be the special 'Admins only' express reply feature then. Such are the perks of the job Posted Image

Actually, I've just thought. Maybe we are reading too much into this. Perhaps Luke just has a Dark Lord of the Sith as his power animal?
mmm, thats odd.

#7 of 44 OFFLINE   Rob Gillespie

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Posted August 14 2001 - 03:38 AM

I always chuckle at the amazed expression on Luke's face when you see it inside the mask. Like "What the bugger am I doing in this costume?" [Edited last by Rob Gillespie on August 14, 2001 at 06:38 AM]
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#8 of 44 OFFLINE   JonZ

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Posted August 14 2001 - 04:47 AM

I looked at it as he could possibally turn into his father. Jedis are trained from the time they can walk, Luke had to be at least 17 or older.Luke was filled with doubt and disbelief-Yoda gave him a warning, he ignored it, his fear of the unknown-so he took a weapon in anyway.Fear doubt and such lead to the Dark Side. It was also a hint to the Vader father son situation,once you find out Vader is his father, it makes sense. ------------------ Visit My Pathetic WebPage "....With that in mind,I humbly add my own prophecy of what the dawn of the new millennium shall bring forth- one thousand more years of the same old crap" Jose Chung

#9 of 44 OFFLINE   Tom-G

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Posted August 14 2001 - 05:39 AM

As Yoda said, the cave was a domain of evil. The cave was probably arranged by Yoda as a way for Luke to learn how he would face the temptation of the dark side of the force. Luke was to have learned that he was going to be his own worst enemy which later came to be as he rushed off to face Darth Vader.

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[Edited last by Tom_G on August 14, 2001 at 08:41 AM]

#10 of 44 OFFLINE   JamesCS

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Posted August 14 2001 - 06:07 AM

Yeah, Iain Lambert, your synopsis sounds good to me. The cave contained what he brought into it. He brought a weapon, so he found violence (Vader and the dark side). If he entered unarmed, he would have found someone peaceful and sat around singing Cum-ba-ya.

#11 of 44 OFFLINE   Colin Davidson

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Posted August 14 2001 - 06:11 AM

Must have been the night to watch ESB. So, here is my ESB question. When Luke and Dak are in the snowspeeder taking on the AT-AT's Luke's speeder gets hit in the rear and Dak is killed. Was this a case of "friendly fire"? From the looks of the sequence it appears, to me anyway, that they are heading towards the AT-AT's as Luke is telling Dak to get setup to take a tow-cable shot when he gets hit. I know, I know, pretty trivial but what the hey! ------------------ Regards Colin "Dangerous" Davidson [Edited last by Colin Davidson on August 14, 2001 at 09:11 AM]

#12 of 44 OFFLINE   David Singleton

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Posted August 14 2001 - 09:50 AM

Going strictly on memory here but here goes...

The cave was created when a powerful dark Jedi was killed, I think in a duel with Yoda. When an individual powerful in the dark side of the force dies, a "dark side site" (from the new Dark Side Force Rulebook for the Star Wars RPG) could be formed. The area has an "unearthly" chill and all Jedi are uncomfortable in its presence. Occasionally, the dark Jedi's spirit remains at the site as a guardian (see Freedon Nadd Uprising).

As for the source of this dark side site, I seem to recall reading it in either a novel or comic/trade paperback.

Probably more than anyone wanted to know, but I felt the need to prove my position in fanboy/geekdom lore. Posted Image

Enjoy.

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#13 of 44 OFFLINE   ShawnC

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Posted August 14 2001 - 10:04 AM

David, you are correct about the Dark Side cave. It was created after Yoda defeated a dark jedi there. However, I too do not know where the information comes from. I believe Yoda hid from the jedi purges on Dagobah and was confronted by this jedi. Yoda then uses the cave to "test" Luke's willpower and tendency to go to the dark side. We now know that was a good idea considering his father's previous fate: being trained in the Force after growing too old for the training and becoming Darth Vader. Just imagine what Luke could become if trained in the Force being ten years OLDER than his father? By the way, Luke failed in his test, and, according to Star Wars literature, did eventually turn to the Dark Side in the Dark Empire comic series. He was later redeemed in that same series Ala his father's fate in Return of the Jedi.

#14 of 44 OFFLINE   Kimmo Jaskari

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Posted August 14 2001 - 10:51 AM

Dak getting hit instead of Luke was quite plausible since they were flying at leg-height of the AT-AT's. Thus, the AT-ATs would be firing at a downward angle to hit the snowspeeders. To me it always seemed like the blast came in from the front and above, hitting the snowspeeder midships and taking out Dak.

Obviously it couldn't take out Luke since that would have really fouled up the series. Posted Image

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#15 of 44 OFFLINE   Shayne Lebrun

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Posted August 14 2001 - 11:05 AM

The concept of the dark side site in the cave come from Timothy Zahn's excellent series of novels, the first of which escapes me, but the second and third are 'Dark Force Rising' and 'The Last Command.' The first was, I think, "Heir to the Empire." He continues these in "Voice of the Past" and "Spectre of the Future."

#16 of 44 OFFLINE   Greg_S_H

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Posted August 14 2001 - 11:52 AM

Could the Dark Side cave explanation come from Dave Wolverton's "The Courtship of Princess Leia?" I've read about it, too, and I've read few Star Wars books: Courtship, the Timothy Zahn trilogy, and a Han Solo trilogy I scarecly remember. I know Courtship has something to do with hidden Jedi and Yoda.

#17 of 44 OFFLINE   Greg_S_H

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Posted August 14 2001 - 11:54 AM

Sorry, Shayne. I had the thread open from before you posted, so I didn't see your clarification before I posted.

#18 of 44 OFFLINE   Tom-G

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Posted August 14 2001 - 01:09 PM

All of that backstory about the cave and Yoda fighting a Dark Jedi are all taken from the Expanded Universe, which isn't considered canonical material, but it is fun to read none the less. Posted Image

As for Dak's demise, I always assumed that the shot did originate from an AT-AT since, as mentioned earlier, the snowspeeder was flying at the level of the AT-AT's legs.

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#19 of 44 OFFLINE   Iain Lambert

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Posted August 14 2001 - 01:25 PM

I agree. Watch the explosion in slow motion. Its got to be the AT-AT on the snowy knoll, as he goes back and to the left. Back and to the left. Back and to the left. (repeat to fade)

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mmm, thats odd.

#20 of 44 OFFLINE   Richard_D_Ramirez

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Posted August 14 2001 - 02:00 PM

Then how do explain the "magic laser" theory? The laser enters the rear of the craft, makes a 90 degree turn downwards, strikes Zak full on, through him, left, up, then Luke's control mechanism? Is that how Luke lost control of the craft? Or just bad piloting? Posted Image

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