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Question about 'Heat' concerning Waingro *spoilers*


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#1 of 17 PS Nystrom

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Posted August 13 2001 - 07:22 AM

'Heat' is one of my favorite films of all time, but I have to admit it's not perfect. For me, the film is similar to watching 'Toy Story' over and over again, there's so much detail in the background that I find something new about it each time I watch.

So I was watching 'Heat' for the who-knows-how-many time yesterday and a couple new things bothered me. One was at the very beginning when the crew takes out the armored truck. We see that this happens right in front of a used car dealership, yet for some reason there aren't a half-dozen sales reps standing outside waiting for a customer. The only reason I can think of for this to be happening is that it's too early in the morning and the dealership isn't open yet? I can buy that.

The second thing that bothered me has to do with the character Waingro. He tips off Van Zant about the crew hitting the bank and then Van Zant tells the cops, right? I want to know how Waingro knew when and where the crew would be hitting next. Obviously they didn't part on good terms (which is why Waingro turns them in in the first place), and the bank deal wasn't planned before the truck heist, so he couldn't have know while they were still working together. So if he knew about it he'd have had to have found out from some third party, right? Does anyone have a better or more detailed explanation?

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#2 of 17 James Fucich

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Posted August 13 2001 - 08:01 AM

Pieter...

This is one of my top 5 movies of the 90's. I love this one for the same reason, every time I watch it, I get something new out of it + all the great performances. To answer your question, I believe Waingro found out about the bank heist when he went to Trejo's house, beat the living shit out of him and killed his wife. (Remember when Neil McCauley found Trejo on the floor bleeding to death and barely alive)? Trejo probably confessed to the bank heist for fear Waingro wound kill his wife. Waingro probably continued beating Trejo until he got the confession, and still rapped and killed his wife, because he was such an a-hole! I hope this helps.

James
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#3 of 17 PS Nystrom

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Posted August 13 2001 - 08:20 AM

James,

I thought of the Trejo situation, but it doesn't work for me because of time constraints. We see the boys ready for the heist at the diner, Trejo calls to say he's still being trailed and can't shake 'em. Neil tells him to pull-out of town and lead the cops elsewhere. Trejo knew what time the score would go down, so I can't believe that he would just head home any time before that. If cops are tailing him while the score goes down, at least he can be sure to have an alibi.

But let's say he did go straight home for some reason. What are the chances that Waingro is there waiting for him, beats a confession out of him, drives over to Van Zant's place, has a meeting with him, and then the cops are tipped-off, all within the time it takes the crew to get from the diner to the bank? I just don't see it. Further, how would Waingro know to tip off Van Zant? It seems unlikely that Waingro would know Van Zant wants Neil and co. taken down one way or another.

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#4 of 17 EricW

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Posted August 13 2001 - 08:54 AM


answers to questions:

there is a scene where Van Zandt is nervous in his office and hires Waingro when he finds out Waingro used to work with MaCauly. so Waingro is under Van Zandt's payroll. on the day of the heist, Trejo *is* being followed, but not by the cops - by Van Zandt's guys (led by Waingro maybe). so Waingro manages to cut Trejo off somehow, takes him back to his house where he knows his wife is, and gets the confession out of him.

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#5 of 17 Vince Maskeeper

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Posted August 13 2001 - 08:56 AM

Haven't seen the film in a while, so I might have my timelines confused, btu I'll take a shot.


Quote:
But let's say he did go straight home for some reason. What are the chances that Waingro is there waiting for him, beats a confession out of him, drives over to Van Zant's place, has a meeting with him, and then the cops are tipped-off, all within the time it takes the crew to get from the diner to the bank?

Well, If i remember correctly, Waingro was specifically working for Van Zandt (recalling he went to Van Zandt earlier and offered to "make a few moves" to help him out).

Waingro definately was the one who beat Trejo to death (Trejo even says so when Neil finds him bleeding to death). Waingro wouldn't need to have a meeting with Van Zandt, a simple call on a cellular phone would do just fine.

I always assumed that Waingro was waiting for Trejo with his wife hostage. I figured either Trejo went home to draw the cops away from the robbery, or possibly that Waingro had Trejo's wife call him and tell him to come home (do I smell a deleted scene?)

Figured the Diner would be 15-20 minutes from the robbery (probably a bad idea for the guys to eat lunch in a place across the street, someone would likely remember them)-- so I always figured this was plenty of time (at least 30 minutes all included) to have Waingro get the info out of Trejo and call Van Zandt and tip off the cops.

I'll have to watch it again.


Quote:
Further, how would Waingro know to tip off Van Zant? It seems unlikely that Waingro would know Van Zant wants Neil and co. taken down one way or another.

I would think that they had a working relationship- heck he was hired specifically by Van Zandt after Neil basically issues a death warrant for Van Zandt.

I could have sworn that this happened right after the failed bond buy- Van Zandt enlisted the help of Waingro to "protect" him from Neil- more specifically to take proactive steps to keep Neil from getting to Van Zandt (Recall meeting with Van Zandt and Waingro where Van Zandt asked what Neil's next move would be- and Waingro calimed he "some moves he could make" that would be helpful).

Seemed like Waingro's specific duties would be to try to foil Neil, and killing one of the crew and getting the heist info would be exactly the type of thing Van Zandt would want his hired hand to do.

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#6 of 17 Christopher Bosley

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Posted August 13 2001 - 08:57 AM

Nah, it's definitely Trejo that spills the beans. Neil asks him point blank about who did it to him, and he said "Waingro" and "VanZant." It's not at all out of the realm of possibilities, given that the whole reason VanZant hired Waingro was to take care of Neil ("I got some moves I can make"). Maybe Waingro knew Trejo before anyone else and Trejo was the one that brought him in on the first job? Maybe Waingro went to Trejo's house first, and if Trejo called home to Anna at the same time he was calling Neil, he would have gone home immediately when he realized she was in trouble. It's impossible to say just how it happened, but the flim makes it pretty clear that that's in fact what blew their cover.

#7 of 17 PS Nystrom

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Posted August 13 2001 - 10:59 AM

First we see Van Zant meet Waingro in his office for what I assume is the first time because Van Zant asks for Waingro's name. The very next scene is of the crew in the diner. Trejo calls and says he is being tailed by what he thinks are cops - "Cops are on me like a cheap suit. Can't shake 'em." Neil convinces Breeden to be the wheelman, we get a shot of Chris' wife and Dominik as well as a shot of Edie packing some stuff, and the following scene is of the heist.

I skipped ahead a few chapters and noticed that Trejo is wearing the same sweatpants and shirt that he had on when he called Neil, then of course he tells Neil it was Waingro who did it while working for Van Zant. But even if I accept that Waingro made him confess in the amount of time between Trejo's phone call and the heist, I still have some problems.

The big one is that Waingro has to introduce himself to Van Zant, giving me the impression that he doesn't work for him (yet). If that's the case, it is an awfully big coincidence that Waingro discovers Van Zant needs info on Neil, meets with him, goes out and beats up Trejo, learns there is a heist going down in the very near future of the same day, and calls it in.

I guess Waingro could be a name-less thug in Van Zant's company - that's why they never met before - but still, to be so lucky as to interrogate Trejo right before a score...

Too bad we don't have a commentary track or even some deleted scenes as Vince suggests.

Don't we have any used car dealers to help out with my armored truck question? Everyone agree the heist just took place early enough that no employees were around?

Pieter

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#8 of 17 JonZ

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Posted August 14 2001 - 01:01 AM

PS,
Just because the next scene after Wingros introduction to VanZant is in the diner,it really doesnt mean anything.It doesnt mean "its the next thing that happens"
The diner scene can be hours, days or even months after the previous scene.

Its a couple days later.

This gives VanZants guys plenty of time to find Trejo. Trejo phones in leaving them a man short which will mean the job will be harder to pull off(and increasing the chances of them getting caught or killed).I doubt they would pull out of the job even though theyre a man short after making a commitment to do the job.
When Trejo phoned it he wasnt really being followed, it was just a excuse, as most likely he went home afterwards where VanZants guys were holding his wife.
Trejo gets back says "I did what you asked, let my wife go" but its already too late for the both of them.

"Further, how would Waingro know to tip off Van Zant? It seems unlikely that Waingro would know Van Zant wants Neil and co. taken down one way or another."

If you remember, when Waingro went to the bar and asked the bartender where he could find some action,the bartender "call this guy hes always putting people on".The number the gu8y gave him was VanZants or someone who worked for VZ. Thats the suprise you think nothing of it when he gives him the number but when Waingros introduced to VanZant you say "oh shit".
Im sure VanZants toadie(Rollins)was suprised to find out Waingro had worked with the guys VanZant was having problems with-it was luck Waingro and VanZant met as they both had a common enemy.


Fantastic movie.

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[Edited last by JonZ on August 14, 2001 at 08:09 AM]

#9 of 17 Vince Maskeeper

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Posted August 14 2001 - 03:04 AM

Quote:
The big one is that Waingro has to introduce himself to Van Zant, giving me the impression that he doesn't work for him (yet). If that's the case, it is an awfully big coincidence that Waingro discovers Van Zant needs info on Neil, meets with him, goes out and beats up Trejo, learns there is a heist going down in the very near future of the same day, and calls it in.

Well, like Jon I never took the back to back nature of the DIner scene and the Van Zandt/Waingro scene to mean they happened at the same time.

If I remember correctly, I distinctly got the vibe that the Waingro/VanZandt office scene occurred in the evening (don't remember why- maybe because Van Zandt mentioned that he was living in his office?)

Even so- even if they are intended to happen nearly back to back- I don't see this as impossible. I'm sure Waingro waqs keeping his ear to the ground about Neil and the crew. Waingro was a cootie, a shithead roughneck who thought he was a master criminal-- Neil embarassed him and so I would assume he'd be looking to get even the whole time.

I wouldn't be suprised to know that he had the whole plan to fuck neil from the moment neil tried to kill him in the diner parkinglot- and only involved Van Zandt in order to make a few bucks in the process.

I would imagine that even if Van Zandt was not involved- I would have expected Waingro to pop back up at an inopportune moment in the story, regardless. Figure it's completely possible that he had his eye on Trejo (or maybe Chris and Charlene as well) and planned to make a move. When he goes into Van Zandt's office, it seems like he's already got a plan- leading me to believe he was atleast loosely planning something.

Geeze, I really gotta watch this one again!

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#10 of 17 Christopher Bosley

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Posted August 14 2001 - 04:30 AM

But what I REALLY want to know is whether Pacino and DeNiro ever actually acted together in their scenes? I bet they didn't!

#11 of 17 James Fucich

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Posted August 14 2001 - 05:00 AM

Quote:
When Trejo phoned it he wasn't really being followed, it was just a excuse, as most likely he went home afterwards where VanZant's guys were holding his wife. Trejo gets back says "I did what you asked, let my wife go" but its already too late for the both of them.

I'm not convinced of this. Why? We see Trejo during the phone call...nervous, looking around like he's being followed. The real reason for him going home is not real clear. I agree with Vince. This is definitely is/should have been a deleted scene. This is not on the DVD, however, which leads me to believe it wasn't scripted/filmed. This is a fairly vague area of the story.

Or maybe my first post/assumption was correct! Michael Mann has given us enough information to figure out that Waingro beat the info out of Trejo and told VanZant. We not really concerned with how this happens. We know it happens within the time just after the phone call. Although this would have been an interesting/thrilling scene.

It would further enforce to the viewer, Neil's motive in choosing revenge over paradise with Edie.

Another thought on all of this...Remember when Neil was talking to Chris on the operating table after he'd been shot. They were asking each other how the cops found out. Neil says something to effect..."Who wasn't with us that knew about the heist..." They realize it was Trejo! He thinks Trejo gave them away (or had something to do with it). The next scene(s) we see Neil searching Trejo's place (with gun in hand) only to find him bleeding to death.

The next scene after this we see Neil at VanZant's house, breaking in, smashing glass, and wanting to know where Waingro is, then killing VanZant.

Now I'm into this story...I gotta watch it again! Posted Image


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#12 of 17 JonZ

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Posted August 14 2001 - 05:37 AM

Becuase Trejo told him it was Waingro and VanZant, look at Neils reaction, hes shocked who was behind it.

"Waingro beat the info out of Trejo and told VanZant"

No, because Trejo wasnt beaten until after he made the phone call and after(or during)the heist.He had met VanZant prior, a day or 2 before most likely.

I believe the order is:

1.Waingro asks bartender were he can find some action
2.Waingro is introduced to VanZant where Rollins character explains to VZ that Waingro is familiar with Neils crew.
(Waingro,Rollins and goons visit Trejo and learn of Neils planned Heist in advance).
3.The Diner scene and Trejos phone call(a day or 2 later after previous scene)(Trejo calling at last minute makes it "seem" like hes being tailed-as for the nervous look,wouldnt u be nervous if your wife was held hostage?)
4.Chris at doctors.
5.Neil visits Trejo house(where he finds him and wife beaten)

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[Edited last by JonZ on August 14, 2001 at 12:44 PM]

#13 of 17 James Fucich

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Posted August 14 2001 - 09:06 AM

JonZ,

In your last post, I'm not sure it was this complicated. Your statements make it sound like Trejo was the only person Waingro/VanZant could have gotten information out of. What about the guys from Neil's crew? If those guys were holding Trejo/wife hostage then I'm sure Trejo could have figured out a way to inform Neil that he's in trouble without giving himself (Trejo) away.

Quote:
"Further, how would Waingro know to tip off VanZant? It seems unlikely that Waingro would know VanZant wants Neil and co. taken down one way or another.”

When Waingro and VanZant first met, VanZant asked him if he knew Neil. Waingro says, "Yeah, we took down a few scores together...” Remember, Neil threaten VanZant early on for trying to kill him. VanZant says to Waingro he'd been stuck in the office for days for fear of his life. Waingro basically tells VanZant that he can do something about it. They both want Neil taken down.

Quote:
Because Trejo told him it was Waingro and VanZant, look at Neil reaction; he’s shocked who was behind it.

Right, because Neil thought it was Trejo who ratted on him.


Quote:
No, because Trejo wasn't beaten until after he made the phone call and after (or during) the heist. He had met VanZant prior, a day or 2 before most likely...

...(Waingro, Rollins and goons visit Trejo and learn of Neil planned Heist in advance).

Yes, but how do we know Trejo/wife were kidnapped days before? There's nothing in the story to support this.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems that the story is not that involved when it comes to Trejo's part.

Makes for some interesting discussions nevertheless!


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#14 of 17 JonZ

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Posted August 14 2001 - 12:33 PM

When Neil says "Whyd you do it?" Trejo replies "I had no choice,they had Anna" His wife obviously meant more to him than anything(icluding Neils crew).When Neil says he'll get a doctor Trejo replies theres no point because" His Annas gone"

And I still say there was a time lapse between the scene where Wingro meets VanZant,and the diner/day of the heist.Time enough to get to Trejo and find out what the crews next job would be.

It could have been one day or 4.We dont know.

Dammit who do we have to threaten to get a Dir Cut of this film.

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[Edited last by JonZ on August 14, 2001 at 07:38 PM]

#15 of 17 Matt Butler

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Posted August 15 2001 - 06:01 AM

Dammit who do we have to threaten to get a Dir Cut of this film.


I want one too!! This is one of my top 10 favorite films of all time!!

Im sure there are deleted scenes regarding this issue as stated above by EricW. I also noticed a scene not in the film but in the trailer with Deniro and Jeremy Piven (doctor) when they took Kilmer after he was shot in the heist.

I believe Trejo was beaten right after the diner scene when right before the heist and found after they take Chris to the doctors.
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#16 of 17 James Fucich

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Posted August 15 2001 - 11:35 AM

Matthew,

I believe you are referring to a scene in the doctor's office where Jeremy's character was talking to Neil. The part that was cut out was where Neil's telling him something about being a thief. He says something like "...I'm double the trouble you've ever seen..." Something like that, but yes, it's in the trailer and it pisses me off that they didn't include this in the DVD version.

JonZ

I can't remember but is there a director's commentary on the current DVD? I wonder if this would shed some light on the Trejo/Waingro story.

Damnit! OK, now I definitely have to watch this tonight!!!!
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#17 of 17 Paul Richardson

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Posted August 15 2001 - 06:31 PM

Quote:
Dammit who do we have to threaten to get a Dir Cut of this film.

The theatrical version is the Director's Cut.


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