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Who is using all speakers as LARGE ?


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#1 of 24 OFFLINE   anthony_b

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Posted March 08 2002 - 05:03 AM

I go back and fourth with theses settings on my Onkyo 575x. I called Onkyo and spoke to Scott from the "product support" dept., My question was, if by having all my speakers set to large will the bass that is output to my powered sub be less pronounced ?...He said he gets this question all the time, and his response was that all your speakers will get added bass and will not affect your sub's performance.....How many of you agree with him ?.. He said otherwise they would not include this feature if it would degrade anything....
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#2 of 24 OFFLINE   Steve_Ma

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Posted March 08 2002 - 05:15 AM

That feature has to be included for people who do not have a sub or people who choose to hook up a sub via speaker level connections rather than the LFE. I think he's right. It might not affect your sub's performance. However, it'll certainly effect the performance of the other speakers being asked to reproduce all that low end material. If your speakers can go that low, cleanly, then I can see where it might be preferred, but I question how many of us have (truely) full range mains.



For me, running my towers as large doesn't sound as good. The bass is just too distorted or dissapears AND it compromises my mids and highs as well. I believe this is because the bass just demands too much from my towers. Everything gets cleaner and more detailed when I let my sub take care of the tough stuff. See the following link for some very interesting details on this issue.

http://www.avsforum....TML/003524.html



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#3 of 24 OFFLINE   anthony_b

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Posted March 08 2002 - 06:29 AM

I agree, my towers are supposed to go down to about 30hz.. but When I set them to small everything is much cleaner, including more bass from the sub.
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#4 of 24 OFFLINE   Vince Maskeeper

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Posted March 08 2002 - 06:52 AM

Towers that go to 30hz are a bit of a misnomer. Maybe with sine waves, it can do 30hz at +/- 5db or so. However- with full range signal pumping and eating up amplifier juice- I have never seen a tower speaker that could do 30hz even close to effectively, unless it has a built in powered sub. It takes a serious amount of amp power to get 30hz at ref or near ref levels- as you can probably imagine when you are running a full range signal from the same amplifier to the same tower speaker- it is a whole different ballgame from producing sinewaves in a chamber. I would say that a good tower speaker could be trusted with 50hz, maybe. I would persoanlly never run my speaker at "large" as long as the processor crossover was 80hz or lower. -Vince
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#5 of 24 OFFLINE   Jack Gilvey

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Posted March 08 2002 - 06:53 AM

Hi Anthony,

I have the same receiver. I think what happens if you set any of the speakers to "Large" is that that speaker then receives all the bass from that channel, this bass is not sent to the sub. If you set all speakers to "Large" and sub to "Yes", then only the LFE ( the .1 channel) goes to the sub (this is not the same as the bass from the other 5 channels). Unless the "Large" speakers are capable of sub-like response down to 20Hz or so, you'll lose some bass, as it is not necessarily duplicated in the LFE channel. There is no provision in this model to send the 5-channel non-LFE bass to "both" the mains and the sub.

If one really wanted to set the L&R mains to "Large" and still get it all, you'd have to do so, set the center and surrounds to "small" and set sub to "None". That way, all bass and LFE would go to the mains, and you would then run a speaker-level mains feed to the subwoofer, using the sub crossover instead of the receiver's. This would still leave the problem of asking the mains and their amps to handle prodigious amounts of bass/LFE, possibly leading to congestion/distortion.





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#6 of 24 OFFLINE   Patrick Hannon

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Posted March 08 2002 - 07:59 AM

All of my speakers, except for the rear centre, have good bass response. The main OM-6's (built in powered subs) go to ~18 Hz, the BPS-150 sub on the centre to ~27 Hz, the rear AR-9's to ~25 Hz and the LFE BPS-400 to ~16-18 Hz. As you can see I have the capability not to run all the bass to only one sub but to spread it to all of the speakers. I have found that having more than one speaker supplying the bass helps to smooth out the room response. If I run each of my front speakers individually, the bass levels are between 6 and 9 dB lower than if both are operating simultaneously. Also, at least one mode, ~40 Hz shows as more than -10 dB for each speaker on its own but both at the same time give about -1 dB (arbitrary reference level). I also seem to be able to hear the direction of bass notes, except for very low frequencies, and the more speakers producing bass, the less noticeable this is. It seems to be important to have full range bass from the rear as well, as I find that it helps in "feeling" that the sound (explosions!!) is actually coming from behind. Obviously if the speakers cannot supply a good level of deep bass the one sub option would be preferable. I did have smaller surrounds at one point with the bass directed to the LFE sub ( the BPS-150 at the time) and the results were not nearly as coherent or impressive as the AR-9 speakers, even though the overall frequency ranges were very similar. The benefits of all speakers set to large will depend on the bass abilities of the speakers involved in the setup. For speaker systems with less bass response, the redirection to the subwoofer should give more and deeper bass response in the room. From my experiences, this is the way I see it and as they say, your results may vary.... Cheers, P.E.Hannon

#7 of 24 OFFLINE   BrianWoerndle

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Posted March 08 2002 - 09:43 AM

How does the reciever's crossover frequency affect this? My front and rear speakers are good down to 60hz, so I have my reciever's crossover set to 80hz. I then have the fronts and rears set to large. Shouldn't this send bass to the fronts down to 80hz, and the rest to the sub? What is the normal crossover for speakers set to small? This question has been bugging me for a long time. I want my main speakers to sound full. I have spent good money to get a good set of front speakers, and I don't want to waste speaker's response to the sub. Let the sub handle the really low stuff and the LFE Channel.
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#8 of 24 OFFLINE   Steve_Ma

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Posted March 08 2002 - 09:48 AM

Brian,



I know opinions on this vary, but I do not believe you are wasting your speakers by setting them to small. Look at Brian F's comments on the following thread. First page.

http://www.avsforum....TML/003524.html



--Steve

#9 of 24 OFFLINE   BrianWoerndle

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Posted March 08 2002 - 10:10 AM

Thanks Steve, That is what I needed to read to convince me. I am still trying to figure out how frequency response works in conjunction with each speaker. That post helped clear some things in my head. I just recently upgraded from a Bose system (I know, I was young and stupid). Now that I have a nice set of Paradigm speakers, I am starting to figure out how things are truly supposes to sound.
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#10 of 24 OFFLINE   anthony_b

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Posted March 08 2002 - 10:13 AM

I feel the same way sometimes. I think that by setting my towers to small I'm just "wasting" my speakers ?!....Sometimes I think of getting a high end bookshelf speaker with an 8 inch cone and give up on the towers....
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#11 of 24 OFFLINE   Brian Schucher

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Posted March 08 2002 - 10:23 AM

Patrick, I too have the OM6s and i can tell ya that there aint a chance in hell these things are putting out 18hz with any real output. Have you ever tried to actually measure these? Dont go by the specs.

#12 of 24 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted March 08 2002 - 10:31 AM

I guess I am an exception to the rule in that, my Towers DO

indeed go down to 30 Hz Cleanly (actualy 32Hz at 100DB to be

accurate and this was documented by Nousinne(Sp?) in one of

his documents that float around this forum)



I run my Mains as Large and that will never change. I can

set my mains to small just by unplugging my low frequency

section (they are bi-wired and they have seperated X-Overs)

and I just don't like the sound (of course I have no sub so

when I do run small I have no bass reinforcement to back them

up.)



But like Vince mentioned a true Tower that is capeable of

30Hz will EAT power. My Towers make mince meat of my Onkyo

TX-DS787 and if I push them hard they simply shut the Receiver

down sending it into protection mode.



When I add 4 high quality externam MonoBlocks for amplification

this will all change for the better. Posted Image



I do not run my Center as large though. I am using the AR

AR4C and it doesn't like being set to Large. The AR2C can be

run large with no problems (it has a built in 6.5" downfiring

Sub Woof)
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#13 of 24 OFFLINE   Vince Maskeeper

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Posted March 08 2002 - 11:13 AM

Quote:


Brett, be careful saying "never". If I were to have a subwoofer available, I would be open to the idea, no matter what.



In your case, you have no sub- so this is a unique and different situation.. but my suggestion would be for others to always keep an open mind. Everyone should think in terms of best sound and ignore what your speakers are spec'd to do/not do.



Although technically speaking, in your specific situataion you can achieve a simulation of the "small" setting by bypassing your internal subs-- in your case you are simply turing off the bass, not rerouting it. This idea might be confusing to some, and isn't exactly recreating the concept of a "small" setting.



The small setting is designed to reroute main channel bass to the sub... and in your case you don't have a sub-- so you aren't really dealing with the same situation many of these others are posting about.



Just trying my best to be clear, so no one misunderstands and and thinks you endorse LARGE setting no matter what.



I think the biggest mistake the receiver/DD people ever made was defining the speaker bass management to include a setting where a Male human has to define something they own as either LARGE or SMALL.



Posted Image



-Vince



PS: When people go from LARGE to SMALL setting, often they notice their mains immediately become "brighter". This should be a good indication to you that the available amplifier juice was being eaten up trying to produce low bass.



When the speakers, even tower speakers, are allowed to concentrate on reproducing Low mid and higher- this allows better reproduction from the amplifier stage, less taxing on the drivers, and overall cleaner output and much clearer high end.
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#14 of 24 OFFLINE   EricHaas

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Posted March 08 2002 - 11:19 AM

"How does the reciever's crossover frequency affect this? My front and rear speakers are good down to 60hz, so I have my reciever's crossover set to 80hz. I then have the fronts and rears set to large. Shouldn't this send bass to the fronts down to 80hz, and the rest to the sub? What is the normal crossover for speakers set to small?" Brian: Either you're confused about something, or maybe I am. The receiver's crossover only comes into play when the speakers are set to small. When they are set to large, ALL the base down to the lowest frequency that the speakers are capable of is handled by the speakers, not the sub. The only thing that goes to the sub is the LFE or ".1" channel, a dedicated channel in the surround format for low frequency effects. Conversely, when the speakers are set to "small," all the sonic information below the cross-over point is sent to the subwoofer in addition to the LFE information. To Anthony's original question in the thread. Setting the speakers to large or small will not affect a subwoofer's "performance," if by that you mean the *manner* in which it reproduces base, e.g. accurate, boomy, how low it goes, etc. However, setting speakers to large will *dramatically* decrease the *output* of your subwoofer. People who buy new subs sometimes start to listen to them without realizing their speakers are set to large, and some people have almost returned their subwoofers out of disappointment because of this. Try listening to test tones with the speakers set to large and small and you will see what I mean. Bookshelf and smaller speakers *must* be set to small or you simply do not hear anything but LFE below the effective cutoff of the speaker, which for a good bookself sized speaker is not much under about 60 hz. For towers, I still generally recommend setting them to small.

#15 of 24 OFFLINE   Patrick Hannon

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Posted March 08 2002 - 12:09 PM

Brian: I have measured the bass response with the radio shack meter and a couple of test discs (Dolby Digital and CD). You can indeed feel and sense the low bass frequencies being present. Now this will not be at 120 dB but present none the less. The deep bass pedals in a number of organ recordings on Telarc CD's are definately present (feel the notes in the room)and are obviously missing with other speakers that do not have the low end response. The OM-6's go much lower and cleaner than my old AR-9's did. My theatre room is a basement room and this might have something to do with my observations. I seem to have bass reinforcement in the 20Hz region. When I auditioned speakers a few years ago, the low bass was what I was searching for (for stereo CD listening) and these speakers were the best (best in other areas as well) that I could find in my price range. I am very pleased with their performance. cheers, P.E.Hannon

#16 of 24 OFFLINE   Bob_A

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Posted March 08 2002 - 12:21 PM

Someone at AR told me that you can effectively mimic a movie theater setup if your front channel speakers can all play adequately down to at least 35-40Hz. So, the mains (and even the center, if possible) can be set to "large", the rears set to "small", and the external sub used for LFE only. Apparently this can add to the spaciousness of the sound. However, in order to use such a setup, you need very capable front channel speakers (an OM-6 would be fine). Some people also prefer to set the rears to "large" because they feel that there is a more desireable rear soundstage.

#17 of 24 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted March 08 2002 - 02:52 PM

Vince, "What is worse, and is terribly neglected in this thread, is that speaker manufacturer specs are flat out lies." Don’t jump to conclusions about ALL speaker companies just because the “norm” is to Fudge the specs. AR does not use +/- 5Db Slopes actually they use +/- 2Db which dare I say is almost unheard of in this price range (let alone 4 times this price) AR specs the AR9 down to 32Hz and guess what? Tom Nousinne’s (Sp?) separate tests Proved that the AR5 (same as the 9 ) does in fact hit 32Hz at 100DB. Not all speaker manufacturers blow smoke and use mirrors.
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#18 of 24 OFFLINE   Vince Maskeeper

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Posted March 08 2002 - 05:44 PM

[quote]

Not all speaker manufacturers blow smoke and use mirrors.

[quote]


Not all of the errors in speaker specs are cuased by deliberate attempts to mislead people. Certainly, some are (like doing freq response at +/-5db)...



But much of the problem with speaker specs are the "real world" applications simply do not duplicate the testing environment. Idal situations vs. real world environments usually result in speakers not being able to live up to their specs. Amplifier power and design has a lot to do with as well-- not to mention that often speakers are tested with test tones that do not replicate the demands of real complex full range signals.



My basic point is do not, I repeat DO NOT assume your speakers are fine down to 32hz just because it says so on the box.



-Vince
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#19 of 24 OFFLINE   Brett DiMichele

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Posted March 08 2002 - 06:23 PM

Room acoustics and amplifier power has more do do with the

speakers performance than any other variable. The speaker

company lists what the speakers can do in an "Ideal" environment

usualy with pure class A amplifier power and room acoustics

which we will never see short of a recording studio.



But does this mean that we will never acheive the spec in our

own home environment? Hardly. Many hours of calibration, testing

and also supplying those speakers with the appropriate power

levels to match the needs will indeed net you the "spec"

results if not better.



I can only vouch for AR and not all speaker companies. My

AR9's not only go to 32Hz (as the box says) but they go

signifigantly lower. Of course I can't say that they have

much useful output at say 25Hz and this is why AR would never

"spec" them to be a 25Hz speaker!



Posted Image ain't this fun?
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#20 of 24 OFFLINE   Andrew_Ballew

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Posted March 08 2002 - 10:12 PM

I run Def Tech BP8's for mains, and a Def Tech PF15tl sub. They are powered by a Carver AV-806x amp, and I am convinced that soundtracks sound better with the pre/pro set to large. To my ears there is an added sense of spaciousness up front. Perhaps I am missing some bass (trust me, there is still plenty of it- bass is one thing Def Tech does well), but that is of little consequence to me since to my ears I am using the better sounding of the possible setups. Of course, Stereo Review a few years back did measure the BP8's frequency response to be +/-3 db from 30hz-20khz. Not too shabby. cheers Andrew Ballew




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