I've got to avoid HTF's After Hours (for health reasons) (1 Viewer)

Peter Kim · Mar 7, 2002

Although 2 of my favorite forums are Software and Movies, my time spent here in After Hours can be characterized as thoroughly enjoyable and surprisingly, educational. However, lately my visits have been fraught with peril - I get so incensed by reading some of the posts that I can feel my blood pressure zoom.

I will be the first to admit that I am guilty by complicity - I was the one who started the "Woman bites Nipple" thread. However, David Lawson's recently closed thread, "Maybe we've just redefined "inhumanity" here..." epitomizes my sentiments - I hate stupidity.

(My sincere apologies to Jack Briggs - I was unable to get in under the wire to voice/vent my opinions on David's topic. I am not trying to be subversive by trying to resuscitate a controversial topic. I hope any discussion on the death penalty and other politically charged cause celebre's remain muted and absent from this thread.)

My point...what the hell happened to respect for life? In the woman bites nipple and hit-and-run story, the two monsters central to the stories seem to be completely devoid of common sense, respect for others, and intelligence.

Case in point -

Mike Heiskell, Mallard's attorney, called the woman's arrest on a murder warrant premature.

"I think this is overreaching on the part of the prosecution and the police, and in the end, I believe the law will shake out that this was simply a case of failure to stop and render aid," Heiskell said.

Does this lawyer believe the rest of society is so gullible and blind? I understand he's doing his job, but his defense is completely vacuous and assumes us for fools.

Throw this lawyer into the same group with the woman who committed the act and her friends who aided her in the 'disposal' of the body - they all are betraying the sanctity of life. To me, this story takes the cake in embodying the sterile society portrayed in movies like The Terminator and The Matrix - checked out and mechanical.

Sheesh,...again, apologies to Jack for triggering a potential conundrum, but I feel much better after my lambast.

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Ron-P · Mar 7, 2002

I see a padlock in this threads future.
Peace Out~

Peter Kim · Mar 7, 2002

Perhaps I should tighten up my point to reflect the subject line and spirit of this thread.
What are the threads that rile you up the most (not at the poster but the subject contained within - although NathanP might be the exception

).
For me, it's the aforementioned threads that discuss bizarre, current topics or customer-service-from-hell threads. Probably one and the same.
Whenever I see someone post something along those lines, I invariably enter, at my own risk. I know I'm in for a wild ride.

David Lawson · Mar 7, 2002

No offense to anyone who posted in my thread, but I knew its hours were numbered as soon as the death penalty was brought up, which was immediately.

I'm deeply disturbed by the fact that incidents like the hit-and-run can occur in this country despite being in the immediate wake of a national tragedy. We have literally millions of examples of charity and responsibility to draw from since September 11. Have we forgotten so soon, or did we never learn from it in the first place?

Todd Hochard · Mar 7, 2002

Does this lawyer believe the rest of society is so gullible and blind?

Nah. He's just doing his job. Everyone is entitled to legal defense, and his job is to provide it. Even for this person. He may not believe that crap that he's spewing, but he's got to make you (the potential juror) believe it. It's the way the game is played.

What troubled me more was a visit with a big-time, quite successful, defense lawyer here in town. We were at his (million dollar) house (mansion), enjoying an engagement party with friends, and smoking some of his very expensive cigars. A nice conversation by the pool, late in the evening. We were speaking about his lawyering, and he says-

"Drug Dealers, Rapists, Murderers- you name it- I've gotten them all off!"

I was so enraged, that I wanted to (literally) vomit in his lap, then sever his head to let the evil out. His use of the terms "rapists and murderers," his own condemnation of his former clients, set me off. I felt like I was sitting across from Al Pacino's "Devil's Advocate" character, quite literally.

We left shortly, and I haven't spoken to him since.

Todd

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Todd Hochard · Mar 7, 2002

Sorry for the continuation, I had to relinquish the PC for a second-

That nipple story troubles me a little bit, but only to the extent that the perpetrator of the crime probably sees no wrong in what she's done.

But, what about the victim? Why did she stand for this? Why would she stay so long? As a VERY independent-minded person, I can't fathom putting up with crap like that.

The hit-and-run(away with the victim still attached) story is one that utterly bewilders me. That lady will get hers, somehow, someday. I very much believe in a sort-of karmic payback. It'll come around, eventually.

But overall, Hakuna Matata, Peter. Why worry about things you absolutely cannot control? Conduct yourself in a manner you deem acceptable, impart this thinking on those around you, as much as you can, and live your life. In spite of that, there will still be the Osamas of the world. And, in spite of his best efforts, there will still be people like us in the world.

Todd

Jack Briggs · Mar 7, 2002

As long as you guys can steer clear of political hot-button topics, you can continue to vent your outrage at social injustices here. But be careful and, above all, civil. Otherwise, well, you know. ...

Peter Kim · Mar 7, 2002

We were speaking about his lawyering, and he says- "Drug Dealers, Rapists, Murderers- you name it- I've gotten them all off!" I was so enraged, that I wanted to (literally) vomit in his lap, then sever his head to let the evil out. His use of the terms "rapists and murderers," his own condemnation of his former clients, set me off.

This is exactly what I meant - when you are immediately faced with the absurd, your whole moral fiber cannot help but feel instinctually repulsed and enraged.

Apparently, here's a guy whose doing his job well. Yet, he acknowledges that he releases the scum of society back into our communities. How do you reconcile him doing his job and a responsibility to humanity.

If a client approaches an attorney and the attorney feels that the evidence weighs in favor of doubt, fine...represent. But in this case, your attorney acquaintence sounds proud of his skills in getting sociopaths he knew were guilty, off. Where does this attorney fit into the spectrum in contributing to the demise of society? Especially, when these known criminals commit another crime.

It's hard to disconnect.

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Patrick Sun · Mar 7, 2002

Peter, your outrage is understandable, but it's about keeping government "honest" and not allowing it to railroad the innocent into prisons. What's the saying? Better that 100 guilty men go free than have one innocent man go to prison to serve time for a crime they did not commit.

It's about making the government prove its case to enforce the laws of the land. It's about not trampling the rights of Americans without due process.

I could go on, but I won't because this forum is not really suited for such topics. It would behoove others to not follow up too fervently because this thread will get closed down if it spirals into broadsided remarks of defense lawyers, who are just doing their jobs, with some being very skilled at their occupation.

Max Leung · Mar 8, 2002

There is an ancient Chinese saying:

"Life is cheap, flesh plentiful."

It took millions of years for humans to evolve to this state...how many more hundreds of thousands of years do you think it will take before the injustices of humanity are a distant memory, never to be repeated again?

Choose one: Face extinction or change human nature through science.

The only novel I know that so very closely parallels our current predicament, is "Chung Kuo: The Middle Kingdom", by David Wingrove. A finer book on the human condition has never been as well-written as this one...

Julian Reville · Mar 8, 2002

it's about keeping government "honest" and not allowing it to railroad the innocent into prisons. What's the saying? Better that 100 guilty men go free than have one innocent man go to prison to serve time for a crime they did not commit.

Patrick, while I respect your opinion, I don't agree with this statement. Nothing that man creates, including a legal ssytem, can ever be perfect. Our legal system is far from perfect, and sometimes innocent people will be convicted. On the other hand, it seems far more common for cases to be dismissed early in the process for technical or procedural reasons, that have nothing to do with the guilt or innocence of the accused. And they go free to rape and murder again.
As far as lawyers defending these folks and profiting from it: it's disgusting, but I don't ever see it changing. Lawyers write the laws (as lawmakers), define the laws as judges, and profit from the laws as attorneys. They have a total lock on the system.

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Peter Kim · Mar 8, 2002

(I should've placed a winky smile in the subject of this thread. Although I get distressed by what I perceive as injustice, stupidity, and crimes against humanity, usually my mind & soul become exorcised of these demons by spending time with my wife and son, having a properly chilled Guinness, and watching a damn fine movie.)
However, the story originally linked with David Lawson's thread only gets worse. Much worse:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/03/08/hi....ap/index.html

"She is not the monster that police and prosecutors are making her out to be."

WTF?!!
Patrick, I don't believe I was broadsiding defense attorneys in my previous remarks. I was referring specifically to Todd's experience with one vile attorney and those attorney's who are singularly aware of the guilt of those clients they set free (after accepting payment, of course).
Max...sounds like a fascinating, existential read. Can you lend me some insight on David Wingrove's credentials? His name immediately invokes an image of a white, Western guy - what is his capacity to write on an asian topic (my guess based on title alone)?

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Patrick Sun · Mar 8, 2002

There are 2 ways to look at this problem:

Macro-wise - how crimes impact society.

Micro-wise - how crimes impact you on a personal level.

The problem arises when you apply micro-principles to macro-problems.

Until you are found "guilty" by the judge or a jury of your peers, you are entitled to the best defense you can afford. You are "innocent" until proven "guilty". That's the system we have. To fix the system on a macro-level, you have to find a way to work within the system to make the changes. The problem is that there are so many cooks in the kitchen, change is very hard to make in a short period of time, and in the meantime, it will allow the guilty go free.

Life is neither fair or impartial. But given all of the shortcoming of "the system" it's still the best we've got, and the only way to not let it control your life/anger, is to be as constructive as possible and not tear down the foundation on which laws were created from.

Julian Reville · Mar 8, 2002

Remember when your mom told you: "Always tell the truth, it's best in the long run". What ever happened to the concept of being man (or woman) enough to stand up and admit you did something wrong, and take the consequences?

I have no problem with defendants having the best defense attorney they can afford. I do have a problem with defendants and attorneys telling lies in court. IMO, if a person pleads innocent, denying responsibility, and is then convicted, the punishment should be doubled. And lawyers that lie in court should get to share the cell with their client. As it is now, lying or pleading insanity is the best defense.

Patrick Sun · Mar 8, 2002

In an ideal world, that'd be great. We don't live in that world. And that is the last comment from me in this thread.

Have a good weekend, all. And don't let injustice in the world turn your outlook on life in a bitter manner.

Peter Kim · Mar 8, 2002

'Have a good weekend', Patrick? Is there any other kind?

Have a nice weekend, too, Patrick. Although given your outlook on life, I don't think that's too difficult. Ultimately, your approach as stated in your last line is a mantra we should all hope to adopt.

Todd Hochard · Mar 8, 2002

Remember when your mom told you: "Always tell the truth, it's best in the long run". What ever happened to the concept of being man (or woman) enough to stand up and admit you did something wrong, and take the consequences?

You and I have integrity- many people don't. They'll tell you they do, but it's what you do when no one is looking that counts. For some people in this country, it's simply all about what they can get away with (*cough*OJ*cough*).

Patrick is right- you can't apply micro-principles to macro-problems. You must take the other route- let it all roll off you, like water off a duck's back.

Have a good weekend all. I started mine with a day at Magic Kingdom with my 10 month old daughter. Her favorite thing- the Mickey balloon I bought her at the end of the day.

Todd

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Julian Reville · Mar 8, 2002

The problem arises when you apply micro-principles to macro-problems

Sorry, Patrick, I just can't buy that. Micro-problems become macro-problems when left unaddressed.
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with just a single step."
I'm all for the good weekend.

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Todd Hochard · Mar 8, 2002

Ah, but Julian-

One could argue that you are, in fact, applying micro-principles to MICRO-problems. They are micro- in the sense that they happen to you, and you can affect the outcome.

Which, of course, is what everyone should be doing. But, individually speaking, it happens on a micro, not macro, scale.

Max Leung · Mar 9, 2002

Max...sounds like a fascinating, existential read. Can you lend me some insight on David Wingrove's credentials? His name immediately invokes an image of a white, Western guy - what is his capacity to write on an asian topic (my guess based on title alone)?

I believe he studied Asian history before writing the book. He is well known in the science fiction world, and also cowrote "The Trillion Year Spree", which is an encylopedia of science fiction.
His bibliography: http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb-bin/pbib...David_Wingrove
Amazon entry for "Chung Kuo: The Middle Kingdom": http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0440207614/
A brief biography: http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/misc/dw.htm
Personally, it doesn't matter one bit what his skin-color or nationality is. I find it interesting that many people think it is important what skin-color a writer/director/musician is before giving them a try. And that if the artist in question is of the same nationality or ethnicity, then the work has a higher probability that it will be subject to less criticism.
I find it a curious facet of the human species. And is one of the many themes contained in the book. A veiled racism, if you will, shared by both sides. But, the book is much more complicated than that...it mirrors real life in a frightening way, and the tension is mind-boggling!
And the acts of terrorism are chilling. And even worse, you develop an empathy for the terrorists that catches you off-guard.
Certainly one of the best sci-fi series ever written, and in many ways transcends the genre.
Go out and get it, if you can find it...the U.S. tends not to carry British authors, sadly. Being Canadian, it is easy to find here.

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