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Dreamcast VGA Box + Tosh 50H81 = no difference??


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12 replies to this topic

#1 of 13 Jason Handy

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Posted January 14 2002 - 01:07 AM

Hi all,
This weekend I got a Naki VGA box and plugged it in (via a VGA converter box) through the component inputs in my Toshiba 50H81. However I noticed no benefit! If anything I noticed a decreased framerate in some of my racing games.
We know that the Toshiba H81 series line doublers are supposed to be pretty good, but to notice no difference between S-video and the VGA output is shocking to me. Does anybody know if I need to flip a switch on my TV somewhere? I thought the component inputs automatically recognized the signal (480i, 480p, 1080i) but I sure as heck don't see the fuss about progressive inputs!

Thanks an advance for any help on this matter.

Jason
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#2 of 13 Michael Hudson

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Posted January 14 2002 - 03:32 AM

I have a Proscan quasi Hi def TV with VGA inputs and the difference between s-video and VGA is amazing. Not sure about your TV. Posted Image
Michael



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#3 of 13 Peter Rohlfs

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Posted January 14 2002 - 04:23 AM

Jason,
Is the S video disconnected now? If connected, remove it so you know the signal is coming form the VGA out. You might still be getting the regular picture.

My third party VGA box for DC has a switch for VGA vs regular. Make sure if you have such a button that it is in VGA.

I have the box, but not a vga to component box, so I've used the VGA box with my PC monitor.

I notice a major diffrence in Soul Calibur but not (no suprise) in Capcom 2d fighter (i.e. Marvel Superheroes).

The support for VGA, along with how much advantage the game takes of it is dependent on the game itself.

Peter

#4 of 13 Jason Handy

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Posted January 14 2002 - 04:45 AM

The Toshiba H81 series is widely known to have a great line doubler. Basically, any standard-def input (480i,480p) is upconverted to 540p. What I was hoping for with the VGA box was the reduction of jaggies between S-video and the VGA output, but I saw none. Since I can not compare the interlaced to progressive signal (because the TV does not output ANY interlaced signals), it may just turn out that my TV is doing a fine job with the signal.

Anybody else have things to point out with respect to this topic? Thanks

Jason
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#5 of 13 Oscar_R

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Posted January 14 2002 - 04:45 AM

I have my Dreamcast hooked up to a monitor, and the difference in picture quality is night and day.

#6 of 13 Jeff Kleist

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Posted January 14 2002 - 03:19 PM

How much/where can I get that converter box for VGA to component?

#7 of 13 Michael St. Clair

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Posted January 14 2002 - 03:27 PM

Quote:
The Toshiba H81 series is widely known to have a great line doubler. Basically, any standard-def input (480i,480p) is upconverted to 540p. What I was hoping for with the VGA box was the reduction of jaggies between S-video and the VGA output, but I saw none. Since I can not compare the interlaced to progressive signal (because the TV does not output ANY interlaced signals), it may just turn out that my TV is doing a fine job with the signal.

A good line doubler cannot eliminate the tearing artifacts. Upconverting 480p to 540p introduces subtle artifacts and does not improve the picture, but does have the benefit of allowing the set to be optimized for a single scanrate.

'Jaggies' can be caused by many things. While a 640x480p game will not look jaggy on a normal monitor, on a larger digital set it will, unless the game is anti-aliased. Even XBox games look jaggy on large digital sets. Up until now virtually no 640x480p games have been anti aliased (though some lower res games have been) because the games were optimized to look good on direct-view sets.

If you want a dramatic benchmark of how much the doubler helps, play Jet Grind Radio. Pan back and forth and look at the terrible combing/tearing artifacts on the edges of buildings. Play again in 480p. The combing is eliminated.

#8 of 13 Jason Handy

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Posted January 15 2002 - 02:19 AM

Thanks Michael for such a well written response. So the take-home message is that the VGA box will not solve all my problems but will help mostly with combing artifacts associated with panning the screen.

I thought I would see more of a difference with Metropolis Street Racer, but the buildings with all the closely spaced horizontal and vertical lines still look terrible even with the VGA box. That is an anti-aliasing issue, I suppose.

Jason
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#9 of 13 Sean Oneil

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Posted January 15 2002 - 08:48 AM

Jason, could it be that, as you say, your set is upconverting EVERYTHING to 540p? And therefore it actually never passes a pure unaltered 480p signal? That might be the big problem, and would explain why you see zero difference between s-video and 480 progressive.

One thing I know for sure, is that Dreamcast in 480p straight out of the VGA box is beautiful, and has zero artifacts.

On my TV, I can see a night and day difference between 480i and 480p because it passes pure 480p signals, and leaves them un-touched by the TV's internal line doubler. You may want to do some checking up on the inner workings of your TV. I suspect that it may be upconverting everything including 480p signals to 540p... and therefore introducing artifacts caused by the TV's internal line doubler/scaler.

#10 of 13 Jason Handy

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Posted January 16 2002 - 02:40 AM

Sean,
You are absolutely correct. The Toshiba upconverts even 480p to 540p. BUT, it will recognize a progressive signal and not double it again (I think it interpolates every 8th line or something). I was thinking this may be part of the problem, but I really want to know if there are any other H81 series owners out there that have used the VGA box for Dreamcast (or even Xbox and GC for that matter because they pass 480p signals)
Thanks everybody for putting some thought into my problem. I guess I live a pretty good life if my biggest complaint right now is combing artifacts on my big-screen HDTV!!! Posted Image

Jason
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#11 of 13 DmitriP

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Posted January 16 2002 - 09:57 AM

(i.e. Marvel Superheroes)

MSH for dreamcast?! Where?!


I have the VGA box, and games look very sharp. Unfortunately a lot of those games had low resolution, which is more apparent now (all Capcom fighters).

The difference between Svideo and VGA <-> Component on my 42X81 is very marginal. Maybe slightly less blurry..

#12 of 13 Jason Handy

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Posted January 17 2002 - 02:49 AM

Thanks DmitriP for your response. It looks like the difference is not as noticeable as I was hoping. Oh well, anybody want a VGA box? Posted Image

Thanks everybody again for your responses.

Jason
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#13 of 13 Peter Rohlfs

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Posted January 17 2002 - 02:57 AM

Marvel vs Capcom 1& 2, sorry.

Peter