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Seven Ending: Discuss... (spoilers inside)


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56 replies to this topic

#1 of 57 BertFalasco

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Posted January 12 2002 - 03:01 PM

First off, I just watched this movie for the second time (first time, at my uncle's house when it first came out on video [I didn't remember much at all,most likely because I lacked certain attentive abilities at my age then] about two hours and 20 minutes ago. You know how people say the same old "I was blown away" and it can be a tad bit too corny? Well, that's basically how I felt after this movie. It was so danm well done it isn't explainable. This is the one movie so far that has topped Requiem For A Dream "imo." I can very easily say I'm finding time to watch this one many more times. My friend, Darren Davis, recommended the two disc New Line PS version. This is one of the best pieces of advice he has given me. Posted Image

I have a question (along with my friend, which we're very dedicated to). It is clear that their are 5 deaths, which are equivalent to the 5 sins. Now, I (and I belive my friend does as well) have a few "conclusions."
1. Brad Pitt's wife in the movie, Gwenyth Paltrow's head is severed. Is Gwenyth Paltrow and her unborn baby sins 6 and 7? (I least suspect this one to be legit.)
2. Is Brad Pitt "vengeance" and Kevin Spacey is "envy?" (sounds logical)
3.Brad Pitt is both? (Doubt it)

Thanks for any input. And please, reply and praise this movie. It's interesting and enjoyable to read up others opinions.

Also, I'd like to, again, add that this movie was awesome. But, does anyone thnik David L. could have pushed the envelope with the ending? I'm not saying I think so, I'm just trying to figure who the majority is on the issue.

Movie is truly amazing.

-Bert

P.S: I just realized something, that guy who had his hand severed and was still alive, was he supposed to die to get the Se7en plan across, or was it just the "moral?"


#2 of 57 Richard Kim

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Posted January 12 2002 - 03:19 PM

Quote:
2. Is Brad Pitt "vengeance" and Kevin Spacey is "envy?" (sounds logical)

You got it. John Doe says it very plainly at the end.

Another thing that bothers me about the ending. Mills and Somerset are both fitted with mics so that the guys in the chopper can hear. So when Doe tells Mills that he killed his wife, shouldn't they have heard and landed the chopper so they could prevent Mills from shooting Doe? In the film they reacted as if they didn't know what the hell was goin on.

#3 of 57 Jon Sheedy

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Posted January 12 2002 - 03:31 PM

Quote:
shouldn't they have heard and landed the chopper so they could prevent Mills from shooting Doe? In the film they reacted as if they didn't know what the hell was goin on.


The location (under the heavy power lines) was chosen by Doe specifically because radio transmissions wouldn't be effective. Anyway, does Somerset actually tell anyone what has happened over the radio? I only remember him telling the choppers to "go away" or "don't land" or something like that.

Jon
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#4 of 57 Michael Reuben

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Posted January 12 2002 - 03:42 PM

Quote:
Is Gwenyth Paltrow and her unborn baby sins 6 and 7? (I least suspect this one to be legit.)
They're not a sin in and of themselves, but they're the means for John Doe to demonstrate "his" sin (envy) and incite Mills's (wrath, not vengeance). Listen carefully the next time you watch it to the dialogue between Mills and Doe while Somerset is meeting the truck.

Quote:
Anyway, does Somerset actually tell anyone what has happened over the radio?
No, because if he did, the word might be relayed to Mills, and Somerset is trying to keep Mills from knowing what's happened until he's dropped his gun (it doesn't work).

M.
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#5 of 57 Nick C.

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Posted January 12 2002 - 06:46 PM

bah Somerset could have easily not answered or denied Mills' questioning regarding what was in the box...

but then the movie would have to be renamed Six :P)
later Pooh...

#6 of 57 Jeffrey Forner

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Posted January 12 2002 - 07:17 PM

Quote:
bah Somerset could have easily not answered or denied Mills' questioning regarding what was in the box...

You think Nick? Would you be able to hide the fact that you just saw someone's severed head delivered to you in a box. What if that person was someone you knew? Think you can still hide it?

I think if Morgan Freeman had tried to deny it, Brad Pitt wouldn't have believed him, and would have shot John Doe anyway.
-J.Fo

#7 of 57 Nick C.

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Posted January 12 2002 - 09:24 PM

Quote:
You think Nick? Would you be able to hide the fact that you just saw someone's severed head delivered to you in a box. What if that person was someone you knew? Think you can still hide it?
IIRC Somerset was about to retire from the force, so with, conceivably, 30yrs of gruesome homicides experience, seeing a head would be nothing
later Pooh...

#8 of 57 Vincent Matis

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Posted January 12 2002 - 09:49 PM

The movie is indeed awesome.
The only complaint I have about the story is although Doe's victims (incl. himself) were all killed because of their sins, Mill's wife is killed because of Doe's sin ('Envy')...
Even if Mills is not killed for his sin ('wrath'), you can argue that his life is 'over' (lost his wife, child,...)

Vincent

#9 of 57 Simon Massey

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Posted January 13 2002 - 01:38 AM

Quote
"although Doe's victims (incl. himself) were all killed because of their sins"

What about the "lust" victim ? I thought the person who was "guilty" of lust in this was the guy who had to wear that "contraption" ?

Mill's wife was a means to an end. like the prostitute. She hadn't committed any sin, but Doe "knew" that Mills would commit a sin by killing him, so effectively he "punished" him beforehand.

#10 of 57 Michael Reuben

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Posted January 13 2002 - 02:18 AM

Quote:
IIRC Somerset was about to retire from the force, so with, conceivably, 30yrs of gruesome homicides experience, seeing a head would be nothing
But the key thing about Somerset was that he hasn't become calloused in that fashion. That's the point of the opening scene, where another cop tells him he'll be glad when Somerset retires. It's the point of Somerset telling the captain that "this can't be my last case". And even if seeing a head were "nothing", seeing the head of someone you knew, liked and just saw recently would affect anyone (even you, Nick).

Besides, Somerset doesn't tell Mills. Doe tells him.

M.
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#11 of 57 Darren Davis

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Posted January 13 2002 - 04:08 AM

John Doe becomes Envy because he is jealous of Brad Pitt's life and then Brad Pitt becomes wrath (or vengeance) which is clearly stated when John Doe says "Be my wrath, David. Be my vengeance" (or something along those lines).

Simon, I always thought the prostitute was the lustful one. Doe mentions something like how she "spreads disease", etc.

Definitely a great movie and worth multiple viewings.Posted Image

#12 of 57 MichaelPe

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Posted January 13 2002 - 05:25 AM

Quote:
What about the "lust" victim ? I thought the person who was "guilty" of lust in this was the guy who had to wear that "contraption" ?
I have to agree with Darren about the prostitute being the intended "lust" victim.

#13 of 57 Chad Ferguson

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Posted January 13 2002 - 06:29 AM

I've seen the the alternate ending on the DVD but I also heard of another ending. From what I recall, this is probably just in one of the scripts but it sounded cool to me. Somerset ends up slicing John Doe's neck with the knife. I'm glad they didn't use the alternate one on the DVD though, I thought it was a little cheesy.

#14 of 57 Simon Massey

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Posted January 13 2002 - 08:41 AM

Quote
"Simon, I always thought the prostitute was the lustful one. Doe mentions something like how she "spreads disease", etc"

Good point Darren, I had forgotten about that line. I Just felt it made more logical sense for the bloke to be "guilty" of lust

#15 of 57 Darren Davis

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Posted January 13 2002 - 11:11 AM

^True. I, too, find it confusing because the prostitute doesn't necessarily do what she does out of lust. The customer would seem like the one guilty of lust. But, oh well. That's the movie.

#16 of 57 Duane Robinson

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Posted January 13 2002 - 11:50 AM

That's one thing that kinda bothered me about this movie. The whore doesn't do what she does for lust but for money or drugs or some other reason. Most hookers aren't doing that because they are horny so when John Doe had the conversation in the car and explicitly stated the hooker as his victim I didn't get it. When he was talking to Mills and saying something about only in a world this messed up could a disease carrying whore and his other victims be considered innocent it irked me a little. I think it would have been better if the guy who had to have sex with the hooker using the contraption was the victim since he went to the hooker out of lust. Considering his reaction at the police station and how he was obviously traumatized by having to use his lust in such a disgusting manner I thought it would be stated that he was John Doe's victim. I bet that guy never wants to have sex again after doing what he did to that woman.
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#17 of 57 BertFalasco

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Posted January 13 2002 - 11:55 AM

Quote:
The only complaint I have about the story is although Doe's victims (incl. himself) were all killed because of their sins, Mill's wife is killed because of Doe's sin ('Envy')...


I agree Vincent, also. If everyone died because of their sins, (but the fat guy didn't do anything worng Posted Image) Brad Pitt and that guy no the bed with the severd hand (which was odd he was still alive) didn't die. Was the point for all of them to suffer?

-Bert


#18 of 57 Richard Kim

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Posted January 13 2002 - 12:10 PM

Quote:
I agree Vincent, also. If everyone died because of their sins, (but the fat guy didn't do anything worng ) Brad Pitt and that guy no the bed with the severd hand (which was odd he was still alive) didn't die. Was the point for all of them to suffer?

There was a conversation with the doctor in which he stated that there was nothing he could do to save the Sloth victim's life, that he was as good as dead.

And why was he the Sloth victim? He was a pedophile, not some lazy slob.

#19 of 57 Charles J P

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Posted January 13 2002 - 02:04 PM

Yeah, this was one of my favorite movies when it came out. I think that there are some explanations, even if they are week.

1) Each victim is punished severely for their sin.
2) About sloth... anyone who deals drugs and sells kiddy porn for their living is someone who is to lazy to get a job and earn his keep. That qualifies for sloth to me, and I guess for Doe too.
3) Given #2, all 5 of the first sins are taken care of, that leaves envy and wrath.
4) Doe is envy and he is killed... 6 down.
5) Pitt isnt killed but he is arrested and I believe the feeling at the end of the movie is that he will be severly punished for killing a prisoner (see #1) also, his wife and child are dead. Call it pre-punishment... a self fulfilling prophecy. You diserve to be punished because you cannot control your wrath, I will demonstrate how you cant control it by punishing you unfairly.

#20 of 57 Bruce Hedtke

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Posted January 13 2002 - 03:41 PM

Quote:
If everyone died because of their sins, (but the fat guy didn't do anything worng


The "fat guy" commited the sin of Gluttony. Gluttony is one of the seven deadly sins that John Doe was using to set his murders against.

Bruce
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