PS2 emulation coming to PS4 (1 Viewer)

http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/11/20/sony-confirms-ps2-emulation-is-coming-to-playstation-4


I'm really excited about this as I still have over a hundred PS2 games that i really like(and still discovering more at my local used video game stores). However the announcement is still vague, so I cross my fingers that it is not a pay base emulator like PS Now.

I'm crossing my fingers, too.


The ability for it to improve frame rates, render 3d polygons in HD (Although not quite full 1080p according to Eurogamer), and the various post processing effects that are happening like AF & AA is exciting since it makes these games look almost like brand new HD remasters.


I hope it's not just limited to PSN downloads like I sadly suspect it will be (Although Sony will hopefully want to counter Microsoft's marketing message about consumers not having to pay to play the same game they already own). I don't mind paying for trophies and having those be exclusive to paid PSN downloads as a result, since that takes extra work past the emulator itself to locate triggers in each game to tie trophies into. But trophy-less PS2 disc support is a must for me.


Hopefully this pushes Microsoft to implement original Xbox emulation (Something that the head guy already said that he'd like to do). No recompiling is necessary like apparently happens with 360 compatibility on the XB1, since the Xbox was fairly standard PC based hardware and they're both X86 based machines. Not only is the XB1 fully able to fairly easily emulate the Xbox, the potential is there to run CPU tasks natively and just emulate the GPU thanks to those similarities.


Combine that with HD rendering and such like we're seeing Sony do here, original Xbox games like RalliSport Challenge 2 could look spectacular.

Emulation on consoles is weird. MS has done it on the 360 and One by having to make a special method that works for each individual game, essentially. On the PS2 and PS3, the original chips for previous generations was included in the first batch of hardware in order to run older games, though software-based emulation eventually came about.

It looks like this is more like emulating a PS2 inside a PS4 rather than what MS did (each game is essentially remade to run on the XBOne's hardware inside of a special 360 emulator). So Sony could conceivably release a PS2 emulator for PS4 and all PS2 games would run on it (with a few hiccups, because of course). It makes me wonder if MS is going to try the same with original Xbox games. The biggest issue facing the 360-on-One situation is licensing rights, since they're sort of remaking games. If you could pop the disc in the system and it runs right off the disc then this wouldn't be an issue.


But yeah, I see this being a way to sell digital copies of PS2 games on PS4, not an emulator that is included in a firmware update or even for sale.

I never see the purpose in something like this. If a person has PS2 games they want to play then just pick up an old PS2 player. I'm sure plenty of them can still be found for nearly next to nothing.

You're right. But it's nice to have only 3 consoles plugged into a TV instead of a dozen.

Edwin-S said:

I never see the purpose in something like this. If a person has PS2 games they want to play then just pick up an old PS2 player. I'm sure plenty of them can still be found for nearly next to nothing.

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The real trick is system death. As much as I would like to believe my PS2 will last forever, I think 8-10(well played) years might be the grim reality. I have had my original PS2 completely die on me, and the slim version I own now has been a workhorse for so many years that I honestly don't trust it to be around much longer. Backward compatabitlity to me isn't just about convenience(it is a huge plus though) it is about sustainability. Literally breathing new life into the system.

I'm excited for this for the huge visual upgrade that it makes possible.


I can't make my PS2 suddenly render PS2 software in HD, I can't make it run improve frame rates, etc. The most I can do is improve appearances via post-processing with a $400 external upscaler instead of letting my HDTV's internal scaling chip do its lackluster job with most PS2 software that was interlaced.


My PS2 will still stay connected to my CRT, but it will be nice if this comes to pass to have the option to best enjoy my large library on my HDTV. Not to mention potential benefits like button customization and more unlikely ones like save states, forced 16:9 widescreen, the lifting of region restrictions for PS2 software (XB1 reportedly does so for 360 software), etc.


And then there's convenience, failing 10-15 year old hardware, simplification of setups and space conservation, 1st party wireless controllers, etc.

Never owned a PS2, never had any affinity for PS games until my PS4. So, for a PS-curmudgeon, are there any PS2 games that would hold up and be worth trying (assuming an emulator)?

PS2 emulation is a good thing, though it wont effect me since I don't own a PS2. Hopefully they don't charge too much for the privilege like that dopey PSNOW stuff.

The list of worthwhile PS2 games is a mile long I'm afraid.


Too bad that you don't own a PS3, since a fair number of PS2 releases like much of the 1st party lineup saw HD remasterings and can be had very cheaply these days. $10 new is a deal that can easily found on many of them like the Ico/Shadow of the Colussus remastering.


I don't even know where to start with a list. Even narrowing it down to just 12 titles that I think the average gamer is likely to enjoy these days with the limitations of standard definition lifted thanks to the magic of emulation, is a daunting proposition. And since I'm not overly fond of a few genres like JRPG's, I don't think I can even do it justice despite 200+ PS2 titles spread across the North American, UK, and Japanese lineups in my collection.


I largely stuck with racing games, action games, adventure games, first person shooters, Vertical/horizontally scrolling shooters like R-Type Final and Gradius V, and perhaps my personal favorite area of the PS2, classic arcade and console compilations like Taito Legends and Activision Anthology. Didn't venture much into some popular genres like fighting games.


And that's not to mention 75+ multiplatform releases that I went with the Xbox or GameCube versions of instead, thanks to a preference for those two systems. Despite a huge collection of PS2 titles, it was 3rd place for me that generation and it's only sizable since so many games were exclusive to Sony that generation thanks to the dominance of the PS2.

Looks like it's not emulation, but upgraded PS2 games with trophies. Not having owned a PS2, I don;t mind paying for the games. It's a burn for those that have PS2 libraries. Eight titles launching tomorrow:

• Dark Cloud — $14.99
• Grand Theft Auto III — $14.99
• Grand Theft Auto: Vice City — $14.99
• Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas — $14.99
• Rogue Galaxy — $14.99
• The Mark of Kri — $14.99
• Twisted Metal: Black — $9.99
• War of the Monsters — $9.99

Here's a link to the blog:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2015/12/04/fan-favorite-ps2-games-launching-on-ps4-tomorrow/

The second there's a 50% off sale on the GTA titles, I'm buying. I've never finished them on the old XBox.

Russell G said:

Looks like it's not emulation, but upgraded PS2 games with trophies. Not having owned a PS2, I don;t mind paying for the games. It's a burn for those that have PS2 libraries. Eight titles launching tomorrow:

• Dark Cloud — $14.99
• Grand Theft Auto III — $14.99
• Grand Theft Auto: Vice City — $14.99
• Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas — $14.99
• Rogue Galaxy — $14.99
• The Mark of Kri — $14.99
• Twisted Metal: Black — $9.99
• War of the Monsters — $9.99

Here's a link to the blog:
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2015/12/04/fan-favorite-ps2-games-launching-on-ps4-tomorrow/

The second there's a 50% off sale on the GTA titles, I'm buying. I've never finished them on the old XBox.

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It isn't for me. Just when I think Sony is going to do something cool for us gamers with large PS/PS2 libraries they pull the rug out from under. Cool for those interested, but so far from what I want it isn't even funny. Guess I'll be hunting for new old stock PS2 system as backup for when mine conks out.

It will be interesting to see the comparison between GTA: San Andreas HD on the PS3 and the original running via the PS4. With what we saw from the Star Wars titles, I expect the PS2 original to far outclass this modern "remastering".


1080p rendering versus 720p, presumably no cuts this time unlike when they did that mobile release originally, a high chance of a consistent 60 fps, a slate of post processing effects to help improve the picture quality, etc. And people still get their trophies.

Bryan^H said:

It isn't for me. Just when I think Sony is going to do something cool for us gamers with large PS/PS2 libraries they pull the rug out from under. Cool for those interested, but so far from what I want it isn't even funny. Guess I'll be hunting for new old stock PS2 system as backup for when mine conks out.

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While I'm sadly not too surprised if original discs aren't supported, the apparent evidence that PS2 Classics purchases won't carry over is a surprise.


I'm afraid that if it's this limited, my interest has taken a big hit. But I'll probably rebuy a few of my favorites since the improvements are so great, but it's not exactly what I was wishing for.


And if the lineup on the PS3 is any indication, not many of my favorites are too likely to appear here.

Russell G said:

Looks like it's not emulation, but upgraded PS2 games with trophies.

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It's emulation, not ports. The addition of trophies is relatively trivial and Sony even patented a monitoring system just for that purpose to aid their efforts. As I recall, this actually was our first hint of this program.


http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/03/21/are-trophies-coming-for-psone-and-ps2-classics


We've seen similar work via emulation elsewhere, long before this happened. Activision Anthology on the PS2 for instance has an offline achievement style system that allows the title to determine that you meant the criteria to unlock a particular patch in each game (Remember those?), while leaving all original 2600 code untouched.





They investigate how each game works to isolate criteria that can be used to make that determination with, and then actively monitor the game as it's being played to look for the occurrence of those selected triggers. For instance on many of those 2600 titles, they locate the scoring register and monitor that looking for a threshold score to be reached that corresponds with the original Activision criteria to earn that patch.


For a PS2 title, perhaps it's a particular cut scene like the end credits that's stored as a video file. When that file is accessed, they use that as a trigger for a trophy for finishing the game. All the emulator has to do is monitor what it's doing and look for that file to be accessed.


No PS2 code has to be changed to make this possible. They just locate triggers for their trophy criteria and the emulator monitors the code.

I'm guessing that they're basically doing the same thing MS did to get 360 games on the XBox One (just coming up with a new way to compile code so it runs on the PS4). The big difference is that you need to re-buy the game. This is probably not the worst result, since I actually have no idea how easy it would be to download and burn a PS2 game that a PS4 would believe to be legit compared to the same process for a 360 game.

I think I read somewhere that the PS4 can't even read PS2 discs. I'm an optical engineer and I'm not really sure if this is true, but I wouldn't put it past Sony to have some technical lockout preventing this.

Either way, I think this is overall a good thing. If we can get to the point where every single game ever released is available as a digital download on modern systems (hopefully with license rights carrying over from generation to generation) then I'm content to not have backward compatibility via popping in an old disc.

Morgan Jolley said:

I'm guessing that they're basically doing the same thing MS did to get 360 games on the XBox One (just coming up with a new way to compile code so it runs on the PS4).

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All signs such as from Digital Foundry point towards emulation, not some sort of conversion to partially or completely turn PS2 era software into native PS4 code.


Full PS2 emulation is well established at Sony these days as evidenced by the PS3, as proven by homebrewers that have unequivocally proven that Sony utilizes an emulation solution for PS2 Classics downloads.


They're able to pair up most PS2 titles with the PS2 Classics emulator that Sony utilizes for PSN downloads, and play games without many issues.


So I don't see why Sony would be taking a step backwards with a more convoluted and expensive solution on the PS4 when a port and upgrade of their software emulator would suffice.

Morgan Jolley said:

I think I read somewhere that the PS4 can't even read PS2 discs.

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I really doubt that about the disc drive. A Blu-Ray drive that isn't capable of reading CD's/DVD's sounds like a theory from some sort of keyboard toting version of the character of Cliff Claven on the sitcom Cheers. He portrayed himself as an expert on every possible topic, but to those around him, he in actuality didn't seem to know much about anything.


Some such fans have taken the fact that Sony forgoed paying the licensing fee to the cd consortium that controls the format (I've forgotten their name, but it's the compact disc counterpart to the DVD Forum and the Blu-Ray Disc Association), which is necessary to legally enable compact disc digital audio playback, to mean that the drive itself is incapable of reading such discs. That connection they've made is a pretty big assumption as far as I'm concerned.


CD/DVD playback capabilities are the norm with Blu-Ray drives and it strikes me as highly unlikely that the PS4's disc drive lacks compact disc capabilities at the hardware end. It's likely just not enabled at the software end, so Sony would just have to pay the licensing fee and issue a firmware update to resolve it.


Or just ignore PS2 CD releases entirely. Only a fraction of the library utilized the format, with DVD by far the norm on the PS2. And clearly we have DVD capabilities here, as evidenced by video releases being fully supported by the PS4's media capabilities.

Morgan Jolley said:

This is probably not the worst result, since I actually have no idea how easy it would be to download and burn a PS2 game that a PS4 would believe to be legit compared to the same process for a 360 game.

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Unlikely to be an issue, since unlike Sega CD/Dreamcast/3DO games, PS1/PS2 era software had DRM protection. So all the PS4 would have to do is utilize that existing copy protection to determine the authenticity of the disc inserted into the drive.


Surely a trivial matter for Sony's engineers if the desire to implement disc support was there.

Morgan Jolley said:

Either way, I think this is overall a good thing. If we can get to the point where every single game ever released is available as a digital download on modern systems (hopefully with license rights carrying over from generation to generation) then I'm content to not have backward compatibility via popping in an old disc.

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Alas, this isn't about to happen with existing software. Publishers disappear and and have left ownership in limbo, licenses expire, just the ESRB review fee alone is sometimes cost prohibitive for more obscure candidates, etc. I fear that we might not even get a lineup comparable to what the PS3 has already seen, which was okay at best.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_2_Classics#PlayStation_2_classics


I share your hope though that in the future, publishers will attempt to better future proof their software much like how modern television shows build in home media rights to licensed music (Unlike the mess that must be navigated around to get older shows like WKRP, China Beach, The Wonder Years, Hawaiian Eye, and so on out on DVD/Blu-Ray).

Emulation or not, making people rebuy games they own is a bit rubish. No reason that the ps4 drive couldn’t read a ps2 disc well enough to trigger a download of the actual game and require the disc in the ps4 to play.

No 60 fps GTA since they ran with a locked frame rate and evidently aren't unlocked by the emulator, but I think this looks pretty good.





And if anyone remembers the statistics screens that these games had, you'll see a lot of unsurprising trophies in these games. I fired up Vice City for the original Xbox and every last trophy for the PS4 emulation corresponds to information that the game already tracked.


I bet Sony wishes that every PS2 title had such a detailed stats screen, since these three clearly weren't difficult titles to locate a variety of triggers for.

Russell G said:

Emulation or not, making people rebuy games they own is a bit rubish. No reason that the ps4 drive couldn’t read a ps2 disc well enough to trigger a download of the actual game and require the disc in the ps4 to play.

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What about people who don't own these games? I mean, if you still have your old PS2 games then you probably also have your old PS2 to play them on. They aren't disabling your old console. For people who never owned these games, they're providing a way to buy and play them.

At worst, I think $15 for PS2 games may be a bit overpriced. I understand why they can charge that but there are some pretty good PS3 games that are on PSN for less than $15 regularly.

I think the complaint that they aren't just releasing an emulator is sort of fair and sort of not fair. Microsoft needed backward compatibility to build up a lot of lost good will from their customers. Sony doesn't "need" to do that but it would be great if they did, anyway. Also, Nintendo has a TON of classic games on the Wii and Wii U Virtual Console but nobody complains that they should just release an adapter for old cartridges to work and then just release a free emulator or something. I don't mind being charged again for something so long as its relatively cheap and offers some unique benefit, like added features or a digital license that lasts forever. So Sony and Nintendo going this particular route is fine with me.

That said, MS has gone on record that they don't plan on offering Xbox backward compatibility on the XBOne. Sony is at least giving us SOMETHING for that generation.

You don't need an adapter here though, since an almost surely compatible disc drive is present.


That said, the main rub for me since I didn't really expect my fantasy to come to pass, is the absence of supporting existing PS2 Classics downloads. That not only stinks, it goes against past precedent like the fact that purchasing a PS1 download opens that game up across three different platforms at no additional cost to the consumer past that initial purchase.


Not even a Wii to Wii U style upgrade program that allows you to pay perhaps 20% of the asking cost and upgrade your PS3's PS2 Classics version of a particular title to the PS4 counterpart.


Glad I only bought three of them, so it barely will ever affect me and perhaps never will if those three don't receive a PS4 release.

The hardware for the PS4 is completely different from the PS3, so porting the games over isn't so easy. Plus they're clearly trying to add features (like trophies) and integrate everything correctly. It's nowhere near the size of a task as a new game but it's not that simple, either.

Sony has made a big deal about how a lot of PS4 owners were 360 owners in the previous generation, so the business decisions they're making are more reasonable in that sense. It stinks for the rest of us but I can at least understand it a little.

They also have limited resources and time to do this stuff. We may not have full-on PS2 emulation but we are getting Uncharted 4, PS VR (with a whole slew of games supporting it), Bastion on PS4 and Vita, and so on. A lot of those deals take time, manpower, and money. Clearly, people aren't holding off PS4 purchases until every PS2-era Final Fantasy game is available as a cheap download, so there's less motivation for Sony to prioritize things like that.

I don't think what Microsoft is doing on XBO and what Sony did on PS3 are good barometers for the PS4. MS has backward compatibility now, but have you looked at the list of games available? Sony has a lot of PS2 Classics on PS3, but how many of them are crappy movie tie-in games for Disney flicks? Only Nintendo, after many years of slowly releasing games, has really hit it right, in my opinion.

I understand that its annoying to have to re-buy games on PS4 after buying them on PS3, but I also think its a bit...entitled...to complain about it. And gamers as a whole tend to be a bit whiney and entitled. I mean, if you bought a DVD in 1998, do you get mad when the Bluray comes out in 2015 and you aren't given a discount for re-buying it? Sure, a digital copy of a movie has DRM that carries over from device to device on the same platform, but there's a difference between a 2 hour movie and a potentially limitless game. I think the system right now could be better, and I think the PS3 and Vita sharing a lot of digital rights for PS1 games should be extended to the PS4, but I'm also not exactly holding my breath for that feature. Honestly, if the PS4 only ever played just PS4 games I still would have bought it.