Noobie help on speaker calibration (1 Viewer)

Well i gonna give this forum a try and hopefully i get my questions sorted out.
English is not my native language so have patience with me

It is like a year since i bought my first "real" home theater setup, and i am still running on a rough setup (distance, levels etc)

So let's start with what i have
*Pioneer SC-2022-k
*XTZ 93.22 - Front and center
*XTZ 93.21 MKII - Back
*XTZ 99 10.16 - Sub

Some days ago i started to read some guides and dummies to dig deeper into the calibration part, and in lack of a SPL meter i only have my two ears to sort it out.

There is some question mark, however.
Almost everyone claims that all speakers should be set to SMALL, it doesn't matter how big they are. But the fuzzy part is that some claims that the crossover on the receiver’s menu should be set to 80Hz, always, while other claims that 80Hz with LARGE speakers and 120Hz with small speakers are the best choice.


I also stubled upon this statement while reading.
-In almost all circumstances we recommend bypassing the subwoofer's internal bass management facilities in favor of the one found in your A/V receiver. You can do this either by engaging the LPF bypass switch (if available) or setting the crossover to its maximum setting.
Failing to disable your sub's internal crossover can cause excessive losses in the subwoofers passband thus degrading the sound quality when used in conjunction with your A/V receiver's bass management facilities. This is especially true if the crossover frequency of both the sub's LPF and your receiver's bass management are set to the same frequency. This is called cascading crossovers and should usually be avoided.

Only problem is that my subwoofer doesn't have a bypass switch and if i turn the frequency all the way up as the guide claims, the subwoofer sound really terrible. So what exactly do they mean by that?

So that's my first questions, and more to come.
Hopefully you are able the read my crappy English

The SC-2022 has an auto-calibration feature (MCACC), so you should start by using the receiver's built-in calibration. But if it's not working or something, you really should spend $30 (US) on an SPL meeter; your ears will not do a good job. That worked with two speakers, but not so much with 5 and a sub.


But to your questions:

You should only use small if you are using a sub. 80 is a common setting, and a good starting point, but it really depends on your speakers. The specs on that speaker aren't well presented (no markings on the chart, no +/- on the spec), but it looks like 8- would be a good starting place for them. 120Hz is more often used with satellite speakers,and your are bookshelfs (larger driver).


When a sub doesn't have an off for the crossover, turning it all the way up is correct. What do you mean when you say it sounds terrible? (It might just be that the system is calibrated yet.)


And finally, your English is perfectly clear.

Thanks mate for a quick answer. Really appreciate it

I know XTZ has problems with their technical specification, but i can give them a call if needed.


And for my second question. If a turn up the frequency on my subwoofer to max as the guide claimed, it really doesn't sound as a woofer anymore. More like a speaker with alot of bass that passes through sounds that shouldn't be there like voices/speak.

Think a gone through the most settings and done some changes, except x-curve and professional EQ, they are at default.

-EDIT: I think i found out the problem. I have set the subwoofer in PLUS mode. I'll have to try it out more in the morning.
-SW – LFE signals and bass frequencies of channels set to SMALL are output from the subwoofer when YES is selected. Choose the PLUS setting if you want the subwoofer to output bass sound continuously or you
want deeper bass (the bass frequencies that would normally come out the front and center speakers are also
routed to the subwoofer). If you did not connect a subwoofer choose NO (the bass frequencies are output
from other speakers).

EDIT 2: Just tried changing from PLUS to YES, and that did not help. Could not hear any changes at all.



Regarding SPL meter, does any brand (cheap) do the job or should i spend some extra cash on a more reliable one? Just for fun, i tried a SPL app on my smartphone, and the levels seemed fine, but that's according my smartphone

If it help. i'm using a Supra Y-link cable between the receiver and subwoofer, and that brings me to a new question.

What differs between a

Y-link




and a


Sublink

jebediah said:

If it help. i'm using a Supra Y-link cable between the receiver and subwoofer, and that brings me to a new question.
What differs between a
Y-link

and a

Sublink

Click to expand...

Nothing.

The 1>2 is nothing more than "covering both holes".

"And for my second question. If a turn up the frequency on my subwoofer to max as the guide claimed, it really doesn't sound as a woofer anymore. More like a speaker with alot of bass that passes through sounds that shouldn't be there like voices/speak."


- Sounds like the cross over frequency on your receiver is set too high - you should not be hearing much dialog except for lower male voices. You want to turn the cross over on the sub as high as possible, so you can hear everything that is being processed and sent over the cable by the receiver. Once you do this, whatever you receiver is sending is what is going to be coming out of the sub. To fix the problem you are describing, just lower the cross over frequency on your receiver.

Martino said:

"And for my second question. If a turn up the frequency on my subwoofer to max as the guide claimed, it really doesn't sound as a woofer anymore. More like a speaker with alot of bass that passes through sounds that shouldn't be there like voices/speak."


- Sounds like the cross over frequency on your receiver is set too high - you should not be hearing much dialog except for lower male voices. You want to turn the cross over on the sub as high as possible, so you can hear everything that is being processed and sent over the cable by the receiver. Once you do this, whatever you receiver is sending is what is going to be coming out of the sub. To fix the problem you are describing, just lower the cross over frequency on your receiver.

Click to expand...

The X-over (crossover) setting are set at 80Hz and always been. But i did change it all the way from 50-200 and did not notice any different :/ Don't know if i missed any other setting that cancel each other out or if something is wrong with my reciever.

What differs between a Y-link and a Sublink

Click to expand...

The Y cable is an standard stereo to mono cable; most importantly, it's probably not shielded. The sub cable should be shielded, so use that.


A while back I looked up that XTZ 99 10.16 sub (I thought I posted, but I guess not), and others have had problems with it too. I seems that turning the crossover it up does not work like the industry standard. And since their documentation is non-existent, you should probably call them and ask for directions.

"The X-over (crossover) setting are set at 80Hz and always been. But i did change it all the way from 50-200 and did not notice any different :/ Don't know if i missed any other setting that cancel each other out or if something is wrong with my reciever."



The sub cannot produce sound that isn't sent to it -- so if you are hearing highs out of the sub - and even tried a 50 HTz cross over frequency on your receiver - the signal coming from the receiver is the issue.


If the speaker settings are set to small, with a cross over at 80 HTz - all bass information 80 HTz and below should be going to the sub - 80 HTz and above should be going to the speakers.


For an experiment - you could try turning your cross over frequency on the sub to 80 Htz, and see if the highs go away. This is not recommended to stack cross overs, but see if that makes a difference. If you can hear a difference, it means that the receiver is sending over a signal higher than 80 HTz, and the sub is then filtering it out...

Martino said:

"The X-over (crossover) setting are set at 80Hz and always been. But i did change it all the way from 50-200 and did not notice any different :/ Don't know if i missed any other setting that cancel each other out or if something is wrong with my reciever."



For an experiment - you could try turning your cross over frequency on the sub to 80 Htz, and see if the highs go away. This is not recommended to stack cross overs, but see if that makes a difference. If you can hear a difference, it means that the receiver is sending over a signal higher than 80 HTz, and the sub is then filtering it out...

Click to expand...

That's how i been running from day one It's hard to dial it to exact 80Hz since there's only dots and no numbers on the knob. But i guess i'm at 80-120hz
So to answer your question. Yes, there's a big different if i lower the Freq on the subwoofer to around 80Hz.

Could it be the reciever that causing this problem?

"Could it be the reciever that causing this problem?"



The sub cannot produce sound that isn't sent to it -- so if you are hearing highs out of the sub - and even tried a 50 HTz cross over frequency on your receiver - the signal coming from the receiver is the issue.


"That's how i been running from day one"


-- You should only be using the cross over on the receiver if it is working correctly - and the cross over on the sub should be turned all the way up so you do not stack the cross overs.


The experiment I suggested would show that the signal coming from your receiver was not removing the upper frequencies as it should be. In that case, the cross over in the sub would remove them.

I maybe have to contact Pioneer instead and not XTZ then.

The problem is that i have to choose a value in x-over at the reciever settings. There's no way to shut it off.

So it is a bad idea to both have 80Hz set at reciever and sub at the same time?

jebediah said:

I maybe have to contact Pioneer instead and not XTZ then.
The problem is that i have to choose a value in x-over at the reciever settings. There's no way to shut it off.
So it is a bad idea to both have 80Hz set at reciever and sub at the same time?

Click to expand...

The AVR subwoofer crossover setting renders the the subwoofer knob redundant/pointless.

"So it is a bad idea to both have 80Hz set at reciever and sub at the same time?"


The cross over on the sub is designed to be used with the speaker level connections - where all of the frequencies go into the sub - it strips off the lower frequencies based on the cross over setting - and sends the frequencies above the setting out the the speakers.


When you are not using the speaker level connections - the receiver should be performing the same function - and only send the lower frequencies to the sub. There should be no need for the sub to then further limit the frequencies it produces, since it is not sending the higher frequencies out to the speakers.


You can end up cutting off the signal that the receiver thinks the sub is producing - and sending it no-where -- creating a whole in the frequency spectrum with the second cross over.


In your case - I suggested you try adding the second cross over to see if the highs would be removed from the signal - and it would sound better (at least at the sub) -- the problem is -- if your receiver isn't dividing the frequency correctly for the sub - what signal is it sending to the speakers? You are just taking out the unwanted and extra highs sent to the sub - but does the receiver then use that higher cross over point to send the remaining sound to the speakers? -- you could end up with an even bigger whole in your sound...


Long story short - get your receiver looked at...

Before i take this problem to Pioneer (and i guess i wont get a proper answer to it) Could it be the video source causing this? It is a long shot, but every answer would help.

I've only tried the surround sound via my HTPC that are connected with a HDMI cable, mostly DTS but some DD

I've also got hold of the latest firmware on files, and i will try to reflash it from a USB stick instead.


And when we are talking settings. Is there any option/setting that are known causing problem in generally? I did try the Auto MCACC once and that did not go as planed The sound got very wierd so never again.

"Before i take this problem to Pioneer (and i guess i wont get a proper answer to it) Could it be the video source causing this?"


- The receivers job is to take any source coming in - split off the signal based on the internal X-over frequency - send the lower frequencies to the sub, the upper frequencies to the speakers.


-- If you have the speakers set to small - will not send the lower frequencies at all to the speakers. If you set the speaker setting to large - will also send the lower frequencies to the speakers.


- It is going to do the frequency splitting regardless of the input signal. In your case - it ignores the cross over frequency you set and sends the highs through the sub cable anyway....witch is the issue you are reporting on. You found if you turned the cross over down on your sub, the highs go away -- but they should not be sent in the first place...


" But i did change it all the way from 50-200 and did not notice any different :/"


Changing the cross over point on the receiver should create a difference - and remove all of the highs coming to the sub - especially if set to 50 HTz.


When talking to the receiver support person - tell them about this test, and how it didn't remove the highs coming from the sub - that should be enough to describe the problem.

I have to give Pioneer some creds for a fast answer

But as i expected, the answer did not help me very much. I't might be my lack och English, but i tried to explain the problem in detail with all the info that i've posted here.

Hello Mr xxx. Ok, so it doesn't sound too good as it stands but there
are a few discrepancies. If your source is from DVD or BD, and you are
playing a 5.1 or 7.1 sound track ie Dolby Digital or DTS, then the channels
are all discrete. This means the sub channel (LFE) only has bass
information and does not have any info from any other channel. Voices
should only come from the center channel unless the film purposely pans the
voice from left through to the right speaker, but at no time should the
film producers every put voice on the sub channel (LFE). The discrete
channels are kept discrete as long as all the speakers are set to 'Large'
and the sub to 'Yes'. If the speakers are set to 'Small' and Sub to 'Yes',
or 'Large' and 'Plus', then bass info from the other speakers is mixed in
with the sub channel using the x-over frequency as the cut off point. BUT
if the MCACC is performed then the x-over value is overridden by the
calculated value of the calibration. I hope this helps. Regards

Click to expand...

So what do they mean? Should i set my speakers as LARGE?

No.

Small=included in bass management
Large=excluded from bass management

If all speaker groups are set small...

And you change the crossover from 50hz to 200hz...

And you hear "no difference"...

You have the very definition of...

Tin ears.

Got to love customer service response to this -


Support: "This means the sub channel (LFE) only has bass

information and does not have any info from any other channel. Voices
should only come from the center channel "


So - according to that, you should not be hearing these high frequencies and voices coming from your sub.


But you are hearing voices coming from the sub - so you asked for help in the first place...and are being told you are not hearing the voices from the sub.


If you weren't hearing these highs coming from the sub - you would not be asking for help....


There was some information in the response you could look into and get the issue fixed:


Support: " BUT if the MCACC is performed then the x-over value is overridden by the calculated value of the calibration."



Sounds like the MCACC set the cross over way too high, and now you are unable to manually lower it . That would explain why you don't hear any difference when you change the cross over on the receiver - your changes are being ignored.


- Is there a way to disable the MCACC calibration/settings on your receiver?



Earlier you said:

"I did try the Auto MCACC once and that did not go as planed The sound got very wierd so never again."



Seems like you are somehow stuck with this way too high cross over point from your attempt to run the auto config software on the receiver - and any manual change to the cross over point is being ignored.


Respond back to your initial question asking how to get out of this mode...

Thanks for all the help Martino.

Just found out how to make a reset on my reciever, so i gonna start all over with default setting and skip the Auto MCACC part this time.

A SPL meter is on the way to and should arrive in a couple days.


Guess i will be back with some more questions soon