HAWAII (1 Viewer)

trajan · Jul 11, 2015

Kino says that someone else has HAWAII. My guess is that someone is Twilight Time. It was one of the titles I asked about and they said " Don't give up on any of them". I wonder what condition it is in. Some one here asked Kino if HAWAI is another ALAMO and they said no. So I do have some hope for this release.

JohnMor · Jul 11, 2015

I'm only interested in it if it's the uncut roadshow version. I can't really sit through the butchered version anymore. If that's the one that gets released, I'll be happy for fans that like or want that version, however.

Dr Griffin · Jul 11, 2015

MGM still has the home video rights?

A. Pismo Clam · Jul 11, 2015

I would probably buy this from TT. I'd like to see a better presentation of it than what I recently watched on TV. After seeing the short version, I went to YouTube and watched the trims. I feel like they took the wrong approach to editing this film, cutting 30 seconds here and there. Some of those short bits seemed more important than entire scenes left in. Very interesting film. Prompted a nice discussion at home about which elements of the film were successful and what could have been done differently.

ahollis · Jul 11, 2015

Dr Griffin said:
MGM still has the home video rights?

Yes, it was a United Artists release which they control.

Alan Tully · Jul 12, 2015

I've never seen this film, I do have the great Elmer Bernstein soundtrack. The thing is, whoever releases it will be releasing an MGM transfer, so the chances of a stunning transfer are not great.

JohnMor · Jul 12, 2015

Billy Batson said:
The thing is, whoever releases it will be releasing an MGM transfer, so the chances of a stunning transfer are not great.

So sadly true.

John Maher_289910 · Jul 12, 2015

I saw this in its original roadshow version. I purchased the laserdisc, but not the DVD. Will not buy a Blu-ray if it is not the roadshow.

Nick*Z · Jul 12, 2015

Have royally given up on MGM/Fox doing right by their catalog. Either through neglect or outright disregard, most of the MGM/UA catalog looks abysmal to marginally competent. In any case, nothing that is even remotely ready for hi-def Blu-ray and certainly NOTHING that is ready to launch Ultra HD Blu-ray. So, even if Hawaii comes to Blu-ray I won't hold my breath for a stellar effort. Remember Paramount released Zulu in the U.K. in a brilliant remaster. The TT reissue of Zulu came from MGM's archived elements state's side and looks careworn and faded by comparison. I own both, because I wanted the isolated score, but also the plethora of extra features included on the Paramount that were not reproduced on the TT. Bottom line: the U.K. region free disc was more competently rendered.

TT's a fantastic little label with a growing catalog it can take immense pride in; but it's alliance with Fox/MGM hasn't yielded the sort of goodies one might expect. Bottom line: it's been a very mixed bag, titles like The Sound and the Fury, Heaven Knows Mr. Allison and Demetrius and the Gladiators - even, a relatively newer movie like, Titus - really looking crummy and below par for what the Blu-ray format is capable of offering. It's all about the transfers and TT, like Criterion, are not responsible for the quality; those masters coming directly from their alma maters: in this case - MGM/FOX. Bottom line: pass on Hawaii unless it is a meticulously restored NEW 1080p scan with digital cleanup effectively applied! It's 2015 folks. By now we shouldn't be eager to embrace the studio's old policies of cutting corners, simply to slap out catalog in any ole condition, merely to include it as part of their 'hi-def' offerings. Either give us the 'perfect picture and sound' the format, and your early studio PR promised or just close up shop and give us nothing. Anything less than perfection is a waste of my time and money - period!

And just so we're clear - perfection is a relative term when we're talking about vintage movies. Make it as good as you can and we'll take comfort that your finest efforts have been put forth. But honestly, Titus had chronic chroma bleeding, Demetrius was poorly contrasted and suffered from severely faded colors and lower than expected contrasts, Mr. Allison was a vinegar syndrome baby with little hope of salvation, barring a complete photochemical restoration and then mammoth digital cleanup. But honestly, folks. The motto herein should be 'if it's good enough to be released to hi-def home video then its definitely good enough to invest the time, care and MONEY needed to do it right. Doing less than is, frankly, akin to insulting the intelligence of the consumer. We're not naive any more. We can discern quality from dreck. A little more of the former, please, and none of the latter, if you please!

marsnkc · Jul 12, 2015

Nick*Z said:
Have royally given up on MGM/Fox doing right by their catalog. Either through neglect or outright disregard, most of the MGM/UA catalog looks abysmal to marginally competent. In any case, nothing that is even remotely ready for hi-def Blu-ray and certainly NOTHING that is ready to launch Ultra HD Blu-ray.quality; those masters coming directly from their alma maters: in this case - MGM/FOX.

The argument in your full post has been made countless times in this forum since the outset of the format. Some studios took note (and enjoyed, or are about to enjoy, a double or triple dip as a byproduct of a remaster), but the 'hotel company' (as Dr. Griffin rightly called it in the 1960 Exodus thread) continues its cynical ways. And why should they bother when punters continue to make the 'at least it's better than the DVD' excuses and (presumably) collect the same fees as your Sony and Fox without lifting a finger - or spending any more than the cost of a courier to dump their tired old tapes at the doorsteps of opportunistic distributors.

In his review for my beloved 'Topkapi', RAH complained that the PQ took him out of the picture. My opinion can't be expressed here, but the best thing another reviewer could say about it was that it didn't show any signs of digital manipulation. Of course it didn't, that would have cost time and money. The only sign that anyone ever touched that movie at the hotel company is someone's fingerprints on the rusted goldbergs from brushing away the cobwebs.

haineshisway · Jul 12, 2015

Nick*Z said:
Have royally given up on MGM/Fox doing right by their catalog. Either through neglect or outright disregard, most of the MGM/UA catalog looks abysmal to marginally competent. In any case, nothing that is even remotely ready for hi-def Blu-ray and certainly NOTHING that is ready to launch Ultra HD Blu-ray. So, even if Hawaii comes to Blu-ray I won't hold my breath for a stellar effort. Remember Paramount released Zulu in the U.K. in a brilliant remaster. The TT reissue of Zulu came from MGM's archived elements state's side and looks careworn and faded by comparison. I own both, because I wanted the isolated score, but also the plethora of extra features included on the Paramount that were not reproduced on the TT. Bottom line: the U.K. region free disc was more competently rendered.

TT's a fantastic little label with a growing catalog it can take immense pride in; but it's alliance with Fox/MGM hasn't yielded the sort of goodies one might expect. Bottom line: it's been a very mixed bag, titles like The Sound and the Fury, Heaven Knows Mr. Allison and Demetrius and the Gladiators - even, a relatively newer movie like, Titus - really looking crummy and below par for what the Blu-ray format is capable of offering. It's all about the transfers and TT, like Criterion, are not responsible for the quality; those masters coming directly from their alma maters: in this case - MGM/FOX. Bottom line: pass on Hawaii unless it is a meticulously restored NEW 1080p scan with digital cleanup effectively applied! It's 2015 folks. By now we shouldn't be eager to embrace the studio's old policies of cutting corners, simply to slap out catalog in any ole condition, merely to include it as part of their 'hi-def' offerings. Either give us the 'perfect picture and sound' the format, and your early studio PR promised or just close up shop and give us nothing. Anything less than perfection is a waste of my time and money - period!

And just so we're clear - perfection is a relative term when we're talking about vintage movies. Make it as good as you can and we'll take comfort that your finest efforts have been put forth. But honestly, Titus had chronic chroma bleeding, Demetrius was poorly contrasted and suffered from severely faded colors and lower than expected contrasts, Mr. Allison was a vinegar syndrome baby with little hope of salvation, barring a complete photochemical restoration and then mammoth digital cleanup. But honestly, folks. The motto herein should be 'if it's good enough to be released to hi-def home video then its definitely good enough to invest the time, care and MONEY needed to do it right. Doing less than is, frankly, akin to insulting the intelligence of the consumer. We're not naive any more. We can discern quality from dreck. A little more of the former, please, and none of the latter, if you please!

This post is, of course, unintentionally hilarious. You are telling the studios that if they don't make a pristine brand new meticulously restored transfer, everyone should stay away. So, they spend all this dough, do it right (or your idea of right) and then put it out there - where people who are saying they'd buy it probably wouldn't, or would wait for it to hit the five-dollar bin (thankfully that can't happen with Twilight Time). Pristine new transfers with clean-up don't come cheap. Fox does movies as it gets to them - you naturally pick three titles from Fox out of the how many TT has released - the majority of what they've released from the Fox vaults ARE brand new transfers and they look great. How come you don't mention those? Several of the MGM titles have looked just fine - a couple HAVE been new transfers done within the last couple of years. MGM hasn't "bothered" because clearly they don't have the money to bother, or they don't see any of that money coming back. People who watch MGM/HD don't give a crap. And just because three people here say they'd buy a lovingly restored Hawaii off the large format negative (they'd complain about the mono sound of course because they won't remember that that was how it played in 70mm engagements), the fact is that MGM would never recoup the kind of money it would take to do that - not in this world. Obviously Fox and Sony are in this for the long haul and restore their films as they get to them. That's a beautiful thing. Doesn't really help sales all that much, which is why Fox is basically out of the catalog business and Sony, too.

Dr Griffin · Jul 12, 2015

What about asset management? If you can't keep tabs on history then sell it off to someone who will. MGM does not get a pass on this. If they are not making any money doing home video releases, then so be it, but protection should be paramount, or as I said sell it off. I've read MGM/UA has made some s e r i o u s money on some theatrical releases recently, so why not pinch a little off that and protect the few large format titles (mainly whining about The Alamo here) they have in their possession?

ahollis · Jul 12, 2015

Dr Griffin said:
What about asset management? If you can't keep tabs on history then sell it off to someone who will. MGM does not get a pass on this. If they are not making any money doing home video releases, then so be it, but protection should be paramount, or as I said sell it off. I've read MGM/UA has made some s e r i o u s money on some theatrical releases recently, so why not pinch a little off that and protect the few large format titles (mainly whining about The Alamo here) they have in their possession?

The problem is that the MGM library is on the books for a lot more than its worth. Any sale could not even come close to what the investors would want. So the great titles lie basically as hostage.

Dr Griffin · Jul 13, 2015

ahollis said:
The problem is that the MGM library is on the books for a lot more than its worth. Any sale could not even come close to what the investors would want. So the great titles lie basically as hostage.

Then I guess it has to be accepted as a quandary that is stalemated.

Robin9 · Jul 13, 2015

Nick*Z said:
TT's a fantastic little label with a growing catalog it can take immense pride in; but it's alliance with Fox/MGM hasn't yielded the sort of goodies one might expect. Bottom line: it's been a very mixed bag, titles like The Sound and the Fury, Heaven Knows Mr. Allison and Demetrius and the Gladiators - even, a relatively newer movie like, Titus - really looking crummy and below par for what the Blu-ray format is capable of offering.

I can see that you take great pride in being super-fastidious. I don't. I just enjoy watching movies.

I have both The Sound And The Fury and Heaven Knows Mr. Allison discs from Twilight Time. They both look really good to me. I saw Heaven Knows Mr. Allison three times in repertory theaters. The Blu-ray disc provides a far better presentation.

It is well known, and was again acknowledged when Twilight Time's disc came out, that the elements for Demetrius And The Gladiators are severely problematic. For you, the answer seems obvious: don't release a disc. Others will disagree with you.

In the new Twilight Time thread members are enthusiastically suggesting films where it is known the OCN is gone and the remaining materials are in poor condition: Wilson and various Betty Grable films.

atfree · Jul 13, 2015

Robin9 said:
I can see that you take great pride in being super-fastidious. I don't. I just enjoy watching movies.

I have both The Sound And The Fury and Heaven Knows Mr. Allison discs from Twilight Time. They both look really good to me. I saw Heaven Knows Mr. Allison three times in repertory theaters. The Blu-ray disc provides a far better presentation.

It is well known, and was again acknowledged when Twilight Time's disc came out, that the elements for Demetrius And The Gladiators are severely problematic. For you, the answer seems obvious: don't release a disc. Others will disagree with you.

In the new Twilight Time thread members are enthusiastically suggesting films where it is known the OCN is gone and the remaining materials are in poor condition: Wilson and various Betty Grable films.

Agree totally. In today's marketplace, if we wait for every film to have a major (or even minor) "restoration", we'll all be dead before we see many of the pre-1970 catalog titles. Right now, boutique labels like Kino, TT, etc are basically at the mercy of the studio on the existing elements. The choice is either get 80% of something or 100% of nothing. I'd rather have 80% of something.

Rob_Ray · Jul 13, 2015

Count me in as someone who does not expect perfection with a title as notoriously troublesome as HAWAII. This is clearly a candidate for Twilight Time, as it couldn't possibly hope to sell more than 3000 copies. I wouldn't expect it to receive the attention given LAWRENCE OF ARABIA.

At the very least, however, I want the roadshow cut, using whatever materials are extant. As I have owned the laserdisc since 1990, I have avoided the shorter version ever since. If the full-length version is not available, I'll have to be content with what I have.

Everett S. · Jul 13, 2015

Nick*Z said:
Have royally given up on MGM/Fox doing right by their catalog. Either through neglect or outright disregard, most of the MGM/UA catalog looks abysmal to marginally competent. In any case, nothing that is even remotely ready for hi-def Blu-ray and certainly NOTHING that is ready to launch Ultra HD Blu-ray. So, even if Hawaii comes to Blu-ray I won't hold my breath for a stellar effort. Remember Paramount released Zulu in the U.K. in a brilliant remaster. The TT reissue of Zulu came from MGM's archived elements state's side and looks careworn and faded by comparison. I own both, because I wanted the isolated score, but also the plethora of extra features included on the Paramount that were not reproduced on the TT. Bottom line: the U.K. region free disc was more competently rendered.

TT's a fantastic little label with a growing catalog it can take immense pride in; but it's alliance with Fox/MGM hasn't yielded the sort of goodies one might expect. Bottom line: it's been a very mixed bag, titles like The Sound and the Fury, Heaven Knows Mr. Allison and Demetrius and the Gladiators - even, a relatively newer movie like, Titus - really looking crummy and below par for what the Blu-ray format is capable of offering. It's all about the transfers and TT, like Criterion, are not responsible for the quality; those masters coming directly from their alma maters: in this case - MGM/FOX. Bottom line: pass on Hawaii unless it is a meticulously restored NEW 1080p scan with digital cleanup effectively applied! It's 2015 folks. By now we shouldn't be eager to embrace the studio's old policies of cutting corners, simply to slap out catalog in any ole condition, merely to include it as part of their 'hi-def' offerings. Either give us the 'perfect picture and sound' the format, and your early studio PR promised or just close up shop and give us nothing. Anything less than perfection is a waste of my time and money - period!

And just so we're clear - perfection is a relative term when we're talking about vintage movies. Make it as good as you can and we'll take comfort that your finest efforts have been put forth. But honestly, Titus had chronic chroma bleeding, Demetrius was poorly contrasted and suffered from severely faded colors and lower than expected contrasts, Mr. Allison was a vinegar syndrome baby with little hope of salvation, barring a complete photochemical restoration and then mammoth digital cleanup. But honestly, folks. The motto herein should be 'if it's good enough to be released to hi-def home video then its definitely good enough to invest the time, care and MONEY needed to do it right. Doing less than is, frankly, akin to insulting the intelligence of the consumer. We're not naive any more. We can discern quality from dreck. A little more of the former, please, and none of the latter, if you please!

Also when these show up on TV write to your station,or network. Tell them you spent a large amount dollars on your home theatre system. And please show better prints.

Everett S. · Jul 13, 2015

atfree said:
Agree totally. In today's marketplace, if we wait for every film to have a major (or even minor) "restoration", we'll all be dead before we see many of the pre-1970 catalog titles. Right now, boutique labels like Kino, TT, etc are basically at the mercy of the studio on the existing elements. The choice is either get 80% of something or 0% of nothing. I'd rather have 80% of something.

Will you still say that, when in a few years when you start looking at maybe upgrading to whatever Ultra Ultra Hi -Def might be out there ?

Worth · Jul 13, 2015

Everett Stallings said:
Will you still say that, when in a few years when you start looking at maybe upgrading to whatever Ultra Ultra Hi -Def might be out there ?

Titles struggling to make it on blu-ray don't stand a chance of being released on UHD, anyway. No one in their right mind is going to spend hundreds of thousands on a full-blown 8K or 4K restoration of Hawaii so they can sell 50 copies of it on UHD.

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