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Research: What would you prefer? (1 Viewer)

SpeakerMaker

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Hello all,

I work for a small high-end speaker manufacturer (I won't mention who). We have an opportunity to release a line of high-end entry level speakers for stereo or home theater use.

Currently, we've designed the speakers to be as small as possible without sacrificing sound quality. But before we commit to that approach, we'd like to hear from you. So the question is this:

For an HT system in the $1000 range, would you prefer speakers to be as small as possible? Or would you feel you're getting a better value with slightly larger cabinets that offer a bit more low end?

Keep in mind that either way, these speakers are meant to be paired with a subwoofer which will make the difference in bass virtually negligible.

We'd like to hear your thoughts.
 

Martino

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"For an HT system in the $1000 range, would you prefer speakers to be as small as possible? Or would you feel you're getting a better value with slightly larger cabinets that offer a bit more low end?"


- Performance always trumps looks for me. If I could get a speaker that goes down below 80 HTz so you can set the cross over point at 80 HTz and not make the sub go above that point - then I am happy. Usually this would make the speakers be a little on the larger size.


Get the speakers too small, and the sub ends up having to fill in the hole - something they usually are not very good at doing. This limits your placement options, and can result in some rather strange results - such as having lower male voices coming from the side of your couch instead of from the center channel.
 

SpeakerMaker

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Martino said:
"For an HT system in the $1000 range, would you prefer speakers to be as small as possible? Or would you feel you're getting a better value with slightly larger cabinets that offer a bit more low end?"


- Performance always trumps looks for me. If I could get a speaker that goes down below 80 HTz so you can set the cross over point at 80 HTz and not make the sub go above that point - then I am happy. Usually this would make the speakers be a little on the larger size.


Get the speakers too small, and the sub ends up having to fill in the hole - something they usually are not very good at doing. This limits your placement options, and can result in some rather strange results - such as having lower male voices coming from the side of your couch instead of from the center channel.
Point taken. Thank you
 

Al.Anderson

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Most of the regulars on this board are going to be much like Martino. Up to a point, I'd prefer performance, but if the speakers are too big, then they cease to be "bookshelfs". Ignoring that last part and assuming you're in the normal range, there are a million good to outstanding standard bookshelf speakers. But there are very few good smaller speakers, off the top of my head I can think of NHT, Audioengine (but their small speakers may be powered), and of course Bose. Which brings me to the non-usual forum member, the ones coming in with the WAF driving them to, "no visible speakers". So my point is, if you can make a good smaller speaker, you may have more market to carve up than another great bookshelf.


Of course, you could always sell both.
 

schan1269

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My main problem going small...

You start losing efficiency. I'd go no smaller than the design will still yield 88db or greater.

Point being, the Pioneer AJ bookshelf is ridiculously inefficient.
 

Al.Anderson

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Point being, the Pioneer AJ bookshelf is ridiculously inefficient.

I can attest to that; I'm using them on one of my systems and I really have to crank the receiver. On the other hand, they do go loud enough to fill a 14x20 room with a "standard receiver" (in my case a Yamaha 671); they just need more juice to get there


Just for grins I looked them up, the Pioneer BS-22's are 85db; my Axioms M-22s that I use in another room are only 89 (anechoic measurement, they say expected room result is 93). Even at 89 (but in a smaller room) the Axioms a good deal of power too.


So I think I'd still consider an 85 speaker, but would to 90+ if I had a choice.
 

SpeakerMaker

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DavidJ said:
I'm with Martino.

Martino makes a good point. But something I should mention is that anything we design is tested to death. If our speaker left sonic holes and imaged poorly, we would scrap the prototype immediately. We're a small company and can't afford to make such novice mistakes. When we design, our testing process is grueling because our products need to be bulletproof. There is too much great competition out there.


What we have currently is two speakers that we have really perfected. One cabinet is just a bit larger than the other. My team and I are divided on the size. We know the wife factor is important and in that respect, the smaller the better. But to other people, a larger speaker may give the impression of getting more for the money. Also, you do have a little more low end.
 

SpeakerMaker

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Al.Anderson said:
Most of the regulars on this board are going to be much like Martino. Up to a point, I'd prefer performance, but if the speakers are too big, then they cease to be "bookshelfs". Ignoring that last part and assuming you're in the normal range, there are a million good to outstanding standard bookshelf speakers. But there are very few good smaller speakers, off the top of my head I can think of NHT, Audioengine (but their small speakers may be powered), and of course Bose. Which brings me to the non-usual forum member, the ones coming in with the WAF driving them to, "no visible speakers". So my point is, if you can make a good smaller speaker, you may have more market to carve up than another great bookshelf.


Of course, you could always sell both.

This is the idea that lead us to begin this project. We won't be able to make both speakers, but I think you've described a big part our target market.
 

SpeakerMaker

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Al.Anderson said:
I can attest to that; I'm using them on one of my systems and I really have to crank the receiver. On the other hand, they do go loud enough to fill a 14x20 room with a "standard receiver" (in my case a Yamaha 671); they just need more juice to get there


Just for grins I looked them up, the Pioneer BS-22's are 85db; my Axioms M-22s that I use in another room are only 89 (anechoic measurement, they say expected room result is 93). Even at 89 (but in a smaller room) the Axioms a good deal of power too.


So I think I'd still consider an 85 speaker, but would to 90+ if I had a choice.

Thank you for this. The speakers are very efficient. I'm not at liberty to throw out numbers yet. But I will say that if the sound doesn't fill the room, we won't produce the speaker.
 

Mike Frezon

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I think you'll find most people here will be hung up on performance. But we all also have extenuating circumstances such as budget, significant others, etc, too. :biggrin:


I'm a budget-minded guy and recently made my wife ridiculously happy when I gave up some cheap Polk floorstanding speakers to upgrade to some wall-mounted Polk RTi6s and RTi4s. She loved reclaiming the floor space in our living area.
 

ChromeJob

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I'm with Martino and Schan1269, if by "Low end" you mean that the speakers drop off around 120Hz, then a bass management cross over about 10-20Hz higher is needed, and may not be satisfactory. Perhaps those WAF-advantageous smaller speakers need a bass module that can sit towards the center of the listening area, feeding the mains (anyone ever made a bass module that had a separate dedicated channel for the center speaker?), letting the distinct sub be a sub.

It sounds like you have a principle issue here ... "are we making decor-conscious small speakers that drop off around 150Hz, aimed at mass market that will not miss the 50-70Hz gap, or are we making decor-compatible small speakers that mass market and audiophiles will appreciate for distinct reasons: looks, and minimized performance compromises?"

Of course, you have no dearth of folks here who'd happily volunteer to do UAT or focus testing for you. Since getting a sub, I'm eying my very old Bose 401 floor-standing speakers with an eye to replacing them with really good stand-ready (my alternate term for "bookshelf") speakers to match the Hsu VTF-2.

You probably know that visitors here often ask what speakers to get for a mix of movies and music listening, thinking they are discrete listening applications. I'd like to think that what's a great speaker for one, is good for the other ... just a matter of power and response to dynamic changes, right? Maybe I'm wrong, but if your speaker hits the sweet spot of those two listening experiences, you've got a home run.

And ... as someone in a separate thread queried, does the speaker look plain, or look attractive. ;)
 

Sam Posten

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I can appreciate aesthetics a lot more today than I could at 20, but I've always pushed for 'bang for the buck' performance. Paradigm has kept me very happy in that realm, I'd offer their Monitor line as a general idea of what I traditionally go for. That said I really like the custom lines of the new SVS Prime series speakers. Both the attention to detail and the solid weight of them indicate that SVS values both form and function simultaneously which I appreciate more now that I have a home worthy of a couple of kick as HT setups.
 

Clinton McClure

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Add me to the Paradigm camp. When I first got into HT in the mid 90s, my first set of speakers were Pioneer floor standing speakers. These could go extremely loud but sounded terrible. I sold them and bought a pair of Blues floor standing speakers which sounded better but I still wasn't happy with them. I then picked up a pair of Paradigm Atom bookshelf speakers and was very impressed with them. A few years later, I decided to go all out and build a proper 5.1 setup so I sold the Atoms and bought a pair of first generation Paradigm Monitor 9s, a CC-350 center channel and a pair of ADP-170 (I think they were) surrounds. I also bought a PDR-10 sub. About 8 years ago I bought a first gen Paradigm Servo 15 sub. The second gen Servo 15 had just been released and this was the last one of the originals that my local AV store had. They were trying to get it off their inventory so it was on sale for around 50% off. It was a deal I just couldn't pass up.

Whenever I build a new HT, I will probably recycle all my Paradigm speakers but may replace the Servo 15 with a more efficient SVS.

Sorry for getting off topic. [emoji3]
 

vidiot33

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I would second the responses here, and want a speaker that was flat to 80 HZ. I would also prefer the larger cabinet for a bit more low end.
 

ArmSC

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vidiot33 said:
I would second the responses here, and want a speaker that was flat to 80 HZ. I would also prefer the larger cabinet for a bit more low end.

I agree. I want the speaker to reach 80hz. If you can make it on smaller side then right on. Smaller speakers have a higher WAF and are usually more versatile (stand, wall or desk mount). However, I don't want that at too much of an efficiency hit so something in the high 80's is great.
 

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