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Completing a home 7.1 sound system (1 Viewer)

ergopossum

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I recently moved to a house that has a setup for a 7.1 system built into the room -- however, it only has Ls, Rs, Lb, and Rb included, as the previous owners took their front three speakers and subwoofer with them.

The specs for the speakers that are built into the room (on the ceiling) are as follows:

Thiel Powerpoint Specifications

Amplitude Response: 75 Hz-20kHz ± 3 dB
Phase Response: Minimum ±10°
Sensitivity: 89 dB @ 2.8 V-1m
Impedance: 4 ohms (3 ohms minimum)
Recommended Power: 30-200 watts

What do you recommend we purchase to account for the remaining 3 speakers and subwoofer(s), comparable in output to the Thiel speakers and within a modest budget? Do we need two subwoofers, or can we get by with one? The room is not especially large.

Ideally the budget would be around $500 total, but we also need to account for a device or devices that can take all the 7.1 inputs, as well as hdmi inputs which need to be routed to component for the theater's projector, which lacks HDMI. We were looking at this, though I found a better price ($380) for it locally.
 

schan1269

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Well, those are 4ohm rated speakers. And...very, very good ones.Depending which "Powerpoint". As high as $1500 a piece. Yes, could have been $6000 on their own.My opinion...Up your budget a tad.Spend the money on a Yamaha RX-A(pretty sure the 7X0 can handle 4, if not, the 8X0 can). An Elite SC AVR(such as SC61) or an Onkyo that starts with a 7(717, 727) at least.This, unless you remove those 4, is a $2000 ish redo, at least.
 

ergopossum

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Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on speakers, given we still need a left, center, and right, and a subwoofer?

And why is it that the Onkyo AVR, which is meant for 7.2 sound wouldn't be adequate? Essentially what happened is I'm helping my parents move into their new home, it has this theatre, and we're trying to make it workable for watching movies without breaking the bank. I don't think they're going to be extremely picky, but it is a nice system to begin with so we'd like to make use of what's in place and get the necessary components to make it work. I'd like to convince them not to NOT use the excellent 4 speakers already in place, but they don't want to invest too much money into the theatre right now.
 

David Willow

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From the Onkyo manual:
■ Speaker Connection Precautions
• You can connect speakers with an impedance of
between 6 and 16 ohms. If you use speakers with a
lower impedance, and use the amplifier at high
volume levels for a long period of time, the built-in
amp protection circuit may be activated.
You have 4 ohm speakers. To power these you will need a better receiver. Find one that is rated to handle these speakers (it probably will not be cheap).
 

schan1269

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The issue here...Most Onkyo and Yamaha, if you stay away from the bottom 2 AVR (bottom yamaha are 377, 477, bottom onkyo are 333, 535) will normally run a 4ohm speaker.But, you don't have a "run of the mill" 4ohm speaker. You have $6000 speakers. I went and checked. Even if these are the prior PP(plastic frame), they sell for $1000 each...used.Either yank those 4 out of the ceiling and sell them for $3000(to get rid of them in a hurry) to buy a system...Or buy an appropriate AVR.You also don't need "new".Here is a list of AVR (most of these will be pre-owned, check Ebay and Audiogon)Onkyo...875/76, 905/6, 1007/8/9, 808/9, 818Denon4310, 4311, 4308(older than I'd go), 4810YamahaRX-V 1065, 765RX-A 1000, 1010, 2000, 2010.Marantz 7005/6Elite(forget non Elite Pioneer)SC 62, 72, 65 (with Elite, the first digit is "year", current is 8. So 7 is last year, 6 is two years ago. As long as the second digit isn't a 0 or 1)
 

schan1269

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As for brand spanking new(actually refurb)Check Accessories4less on the...Denon X4000 (the 4520 briefly sold for under $1000. If there, get one)Onkyo 828, 929, 838(and anything 4 digits)Yamaha, anything 4 digit RX-A.
 

ergopossum

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Wow, thanks for taking the time to write out such detailed information, David Willow and schan1269. The explanation of the impedance issue is very helpful. I'll work through that list of AVRs and see what we can manage.

Do you have any advice for what kind of speakers would be appropriate for the front portion of the theater? From my understanding, we need a left, center, and right speaker, as well as a subwoofer. We don't need them to be up to the level of the other speakers for now (may upgrade in the future) but compatibility with the same AVRs and any issues I wouldn't be aware of are relevant, of course.
 

David Willow

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You don't "need" LCR and Sub to start. If you plan to add/upgrade you could start with a receiver and just the left and right speakers. Add a center when you have the funds and then add the sub. Matching the sides/rears is not as important as matching the front 3 speakers (timbre matching to keep the sound the same across the front of the soundstage), so what you get doesn't have to be an exact match for the existing speakers.

*See what you have left after you get the receiver and go from there.


*This is the opposite approach you should take but since you have a unique situation it should work out for you.
 

schan1269

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Yeah, find an AVR first. You might, maybe, find a pair of pre-owned Thiel that won't make their wallets run for cover.

I wonder, if that is what they left, what did they take out?
 

schan1269

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I just checked Audiogon. There is a pair of Thiel 2 2(yes, a space) in Roanoke, VA for $500. Local pick up only.

Pair of CS 3.5 on Connecticut for $600.
 

ergopossum

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Thank you for the elaboration! Some of the Onkyo models you (schan1269) mentioned are going for affordable prices on eBay. I confess I'm a little confused in that while all the Onkyo receivers said they could handle 4 ohm impedance speakers, every manual I could find for the Yahama examples said they were intended for 6 ohms or higher impedance (with a caveat for 4 ohm "front speakers" only).


The previous owner sounds like he mostly used it to watch ESPN and didn't have an especially high-end setup other than the preexisting equipment, but the owners before him actually built the system. I'm not sure what the original builder had, I think they left these speakers because of the manner in which they are built into the ceiling.


I don't think my parents will be able to invest that much money into speakers after getting an adequate AVR, but it looks like there are some decent sets to be bought used online within their budget. Coming from a video background on the production side, I'm never sure what review sites to trust for electronics for the presentation side of things, considering the wide range of quality standards held by different kinds of reviewers.
 

schan1269

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The issue with 4ohm. Will use a car analogy, of sorts.

8ohm is the normal ohm load.
6 is low.
4 is(in home audio) very low.

Imagine you drive a 4cyl econobox.

8ohm is you in it travelling the highway at 55.

6 is you and three other people doing 65.

4 is you, 3 people, a roof rack loaded with stuff, pulling a trailer...and driving through the continental divide...west of Denver.
 

ergopossum

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So, if I'm understanding correctly, I just need to check the manual before I buy something. I just asked because the Yamaha AVRs did not indicate that they could handle 4 ohm, but I didn't know what to look for, either. I couldn't find anything about impedance under pages of general specifications. It just said to choose between 6 ohm and 8 ohm in setting up your speakers. Whereas all the Onkyo manuals specified that 4 ohm is acceptable.
 

schan1269

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Personnaly, I don't think you'd have an issue with a Yamaha in the range I mentioned. AVR makers tend to shy away from a 4ohm rating. Onkyo/Integra and Elite have embraced 4ohm to let the consumer know..."we built this to handle whatever you can throw at it".
 

ergopossum

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Sorry for the bump here, I just wanted to let you know that we finally managed to get everything working, with an Onkyo NR809. Thank you for the recommendations and explanations on speakers and AVRs, schan1269 and David Willow! We would have been lost on this and probably ended up buying the wrong thing several times without you.
 

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