What's new

It's all about the elements! (1 Viewer)

Neil Brock

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
4,325
When it comes to what gets releases, what doesn't or what gets licensed out to third parties, it almost always will come down to what the existing elements are. If there are only film prints with no tape transfers, you can pretty much forget about it.

Universal - They have tape on some series which have aired in syndication as well as 16mm on many others. They at least are amenable to giving access to their 16mm prints, which is where Timeless has been able to release a great many shows. But if there's only 35mm, other than very popular shows, it becomes cost prohibitive.

CBS - Luckily, thanks to TV Land, which bought tons of shows from them in its early days, there are beautiful remastered tapes on a lot of obscure shows. Many other series, there aren't and those go into the unlikely to ever be seen category as well. Put in basic terms, you have a much better chance of seeing Blansky's Beauties or Who's Watching the Kids than you do The Defenders or December Bride.

MGM - As much of a mess as this studio has been, someone over there in the 80s had the good sense to master their entire television library, including the Ziv shows, to 1-inch videotape. While that may be an obsolete format (although easier to deal with than 2-inch), it means that any show that they own is easily accesible, either by them or if they license it out.

Warner - The state of their own library, i.e., the shows they owned prior to merging with Turner, is hit or miss. They mastered most of their "classic" shows from the late 50s, early 60s when they made the big sale to Good Life. Other shows not included in the deal, no. Turner however, mastered all of his TV shows, the former MGM library (as opposed to current MGM which is the old UA) to 1-inch tape from 35mm when he bought the company in the 80s. One would think that would be great except now Warner Archive has decided that those transfers aren't good enough for you people in the HD, 16:9 crowd. So it then becomes a matter of striking new transfers so its a moot point as to whether or not old transfers exist as they don't consider them usable.

Fox - As we all know, and has been proven time and time again, Fox sucks. They have zero interest in their pre-90s TV holdings. Just for example, Fox owns the Metromedia library but they are so clueless, they don't even know it. That's why shows from Metromedia Producers Corp. are treated as PD and sold by anyone who lays their hands on them. Fox either doesn't know or doesn't care or both. As for elements, we've all seen what Room 222 looks like - decades old dirty 16mm transfers. What that means, for people who don't know film terminology, is the prints are run off to tape as is, no color correction, no cleanup, nothing. Just put on the projector and transfered to tape. So when it comes to their older shows which people are desiring, like Felony Squad or Judd for the Defense or Bracken's World, for instance, if there are tape transfers, they would look like Room 222 or worse. And I'm sure many other shows, such as Long Hot Summer or Adventures in Paradise, probably don't even have tape elements. For those who think that Fox will follow Warner's lead in its BOD program and remaster its older shows, please contact me as I have some great land in Florida I'd like to sell you!


Sony - Forgot about them because they've been out of the DVD business for so long at this point. They were very good about getting a lot of obscure shows sold during the early cable days so they do have tape on a lot of series that wound up in various syndication packages. Also, they sold a bunch of short run sitcoms to HA! when that network was around for a short time. So, some of the shows which they would have tape on are Hawk, Joe Forrester, Occasional Wife, Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice, The Interns, Medical Story and Casey Jones. But if the show hasn't had any sales, its still going to be only on film and therefore subject to the same high transfer costs as at the other studios. CBN bought a lot of old Sony shows but they weren't tapes, they were running them off of old 16mm prints. Shows like Farmer's Daughter, The Young Rebels, Empire, Wackiest Ship in the Army although they did air were never put to tape.
 

oldtvshowbuff

Supporting Actor
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
826
Real Name
James Beer
When it comes to what gets releases, what doesn't or what gets licensed out to third parties, it almost always will come down to what the existing elements are. If there are only film prints with no tape transfers, you can pretty much forget about it. Universal - They have tape on some series which have aired in syndication as well as 16mm on many others. They at least are amenable to giving access to their 16mm prints, which is where Timeless has been able to release a great many shows. But if there's only 35mm, other than very popular shows, it becomes cost prohibitive. CBS - Luckily, thanks to TV Land, which bought tons of shows from them in its early days, there are beautiful remastered tapes on a lot of obscure shows. Many other series, there aren't and those go into the unlikely to ever be seen category as well. Put in basic terms, you have a much better chance of seeing Blansky's Beauties or Who's Watching the Kids than you do The Defenders or December Bride. MGM - As much of a mess as this studio has been, someone over there in the 80s had the good sense to master their entire television library, including the Ziv shows, to 1-inch videotape. While that may be an obsolete format (although easier to deal with than 2-inch), it means that any show that they own is easily accesible, either by them or if they license it out. Warner - The state of their own library, i.e., the shows they owned prior to merging with Turner, is hit or miss. They mastered most of their "classic" shows from the late 50s, early 60s when they made the big sale to Good Life. Other shows not included in the deal, no. Turner however, mastered all of his TV shows, the former MGM library (as opposed to current MGM which is the old UA) to 1-inch tape from 35mm when he bought the company in the 80s. One would think that would be great except now Warner Archive has decided that those transfers aren't good enough for you people in the HD, 16:9 crowd. So it then becomes a matter of striking new transfers so its a moot point as to whether or not old transfers exist as they don't consider them usable. Fox - As we all know, and has been proven time and time again, Fox sucks. They have zero interest in their pre-90s TV holdings. Just for example, Fox owns the Metromedia library but they are so clueless, they don't even know it. That's why shows from Metromedia Producers Corp. are treated as PD and sold by anyone who lays their hands on them. Fox either doesn't know or doesn't care or both. As for elements, we've all seen what Room 222 looks like - decades old dirty 16mm transfers. What that means, for people who don't know film terminology, is the prints are run off to tape as is, no color correction, no cleanup, nothing. Just put on the projector and transfered to tape. So when it comes to their older shows which people are desiring, like Felony Squad or Judd for the Defense or Bracken's World, for instance, if there are tape transfers, they would look like Room 222 or worse. And I'm sure many other shows, such as Long Hot Summer or Adventures in Paradise, probably don't even have tape elements. For those who think that Fox will follow Warner's lead in its BOD program and remaster its older shows, please contact me as I have some great land in Florida I'd like to sell you!
What about Sony? What is the state of their elements concerning their series? The 30-year old videotape transfers of many of their vintage series and those that may have been never transferred. Ye' old Screen Gems/CPT/TSTV/CTSTV, I say!
 

Jack P

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
5,584
Real Name
Jack
oldtvshowbuff said:
What about Sony?
Anyone who remembers a series of commercials for Sylvania television sets will understand why I busted a gut laughing when I saw this line.

We are at a point where other than Warner, the remaining lesser-known titles will get to us only from old source elements. One exception with Universal though is that I think we should some day in the future get a new boxed set of "Emergency!" because my understanding is Universal did do new transfers of earlier seasons (in addition to the last season which was released remastered on DVD) and we should get a chance to see those on DVD and replace the really ratty looking ones of S3-5 in particular.
 

John Karras

Second Unit
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
337
Real Name
Lawrence
Neil Brock said:
Fox - As we all know, and has been proven time and time again, Fox sucks. They have zero interest in their pre-90s TV holdings. Just for example, Fox owns the Metromedia library but they are so clueless, they don't even know it. That's why shows from Metromedia Producers Corp. are treated as PD and sold by anyone who lays their hands on them. Fox either doesn't know or doesn't care or both. As for elements, we've all seen what Room 222 looks like - decades old dirty 16mm transfers. What that means, for people who don't know film terminology, is the prints are run off to tape as is, no color correction, no cleanup, nothing. Just put on the projector and transfered to tape. So when it comes to their older shows which people are desiring, like Felony Squad or Judd for the Defense or Bracken's World, for instance, if there are tape transfers, they would look like Room 222 or worse. And I'm sure many other shows, such as Long Hot Summer or Adventures in Paradise, probably don't even have tape elements. For those who think that Fox will follow Warner's lead in its BOD program and remaster its older shows, please contact me as I have some great land in Florida I'd like to sell you!
That's why I find the wish list over on the FOX MOD thread to be amusing. The belief that Fox's MOD program is dedicated to "vintage" TV has already been tempered by what they've been announcing-and it's hardly "classic". Fox has never had a comprehensive restoration/remastering program for their back catalog and I seriously doubt that they have any intention of starting, especially for MOD purposes which have limited sales potential.
 

Wvtvguy

Second Unit
Joined
Jul 12, 2010
Messages
311
Real Name
Marc
What an enlightening thread! A bit disheartening but great info. Whether it's a show I like or one I've never heard of, I view old programs as slices of history. It's easy to be passionate about preservation but bottom line money talks.
 

Mark Collins

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
2,552
Real Name
Mark
Neil my friend, is this the way you are saying Peyton Place was given to us by Shout. The prints were a heck of lot better than my recordings. They did not look cleaned up as many fans complained. Hey if I have to take Peyton Place in this way then so be it. I just want the series out there. I hate the fact the bootleggers are making money off this show when there is no reason for it. My recordings are the best you can get but the Shout copies out did mine.

I also have faith in this new program that Fox has come up with. I think 2015 at this time next year we will be talking some of those shows listed on the MOD list as coming out.
 

John Karras

Second Unit
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
337
Real Name
Lawrence
When Foxnet ran PP, the B/W episodes were dirty transfers from 16mm prints. The color episodes were 1" syndication time-sped transfers. There is no evidence as yet to indicate Fox has anything but this available. Minimum cost (at in-studio prices) to remaster PP from 35mm would run about $1.5 million.
 

Neil Brock

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
4,325
oldtvshowbuff said:
What about Sony? What is the state of their elements concerning their series? The 30-year old videotape transfers of many of their vintage series and those that may have been never transferred. Ye' old Screen Gems/CPT/TSTV/CTSTV, I say!
Fixed post and added Sony info.
 

Ed Lachmann

Screenwriter
Joined
Mar 17, 2011
Messages
1,733
Real Name
Edmund Lachmann
Somewhere a few years back I read that many of the ADVENTURES IN PARADISE shows still existed in 16mm form. The source article, which I sadly didn't save, also said that the real reason they couldn't be released was a rights issue with the Michener heirs. Perhaps Fox actually has these vaulted somewhere. Anyone have any more information on this?
 

DeWilson

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Messages
2,517
Real Name
Denny
Ed Lachmann said:
Somewhere a few years back I read that many of the ADVENTURES IN PARADISE shows still existed in 16mm form. The source article, which I sadly didn't save, also said that the real reason they couldn't be released was a rights issue with the Michener heirs. Perhaps Fox actually has these vaulted somewhere. Anyone have any more information on this?
I recall there were,and still is, music issues on the series.

What happened to the colorized episodes they did in the 1980s?
 

Professor Echo

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
2,003
Location
Los Angeles
Real Name
Glen
Expert analysis and history, Neil.

Your gauge on Warners is absolutely correct and it's what is suffocating their streaming channel. Rather than air anything truly rare from their vast library, they choose to only program titles, both movies and television, that have undergone at least some remastering and then either upconverted to HD or in genuine HD, but still not looking good in the process. Anyone with access with TCM or the Warner Archive DVDs will find little that hasn't already been broadcast or released. They are focusing so heavily on picture quality and catering to HD sets that they adamantly refuse to show anything they deem less than pristine.

Add to that an awful, user unfriendly interface and lower tier technology with frequent outages and buffering, and they pose no threat to Netflix other than in choice of older material. Your monthly bill of $9.95 would be much better spent elsewhere.
 

Conrad_SSS

Second Unit
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Messages
450
1" analog video masters for film-based television programming may have been fine for VHS or even laserdisc, but decades have passed, and utilizing masters made in the '80s from film from this antiquated format will only yield a poor looking DVD.

When a show was produced on videotape instead of film, one has to be a bit forgiving. The limitations of the technology are what they are, but for film-based shows, we deserve better quality in this day and age. I was burned by a few of the ZIV/MGM TV series releases, and won't make that mistake again.
 

Neil Brock

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
4,325
Conrad_SSS said:
1" analog video masters for film-based television programming may have been fine for VHS or even laserdisc, but decades have passed, and utilizing masters made in the '80s from film from this antiquated format will only yield a poor looking DVD.

When a show was produced on videotape instead of film, one has to be a bit forgiving. The limitations of the technology are what they are, but for film-based shows, we deserve better quality in this day and age. I was burned by a few of the ZIV/MGM TV series releases, and won't make that mistake again.
Then all you are doing is excluding a huge percentage of television from yourself. In spite of what the Pollyannas think, there will never come a day where every show or even more than 10% of the shows, will see an HD transfer. If you want to exclude that 90% from your viewership, that's your prerogative. I prefer to be able to have access to as much as I can, regardless of format.
 

Neil Brock

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
4,325
Professor Echo said:
Expert analysis and history, Neil.

Your gauge on Warners is absolutely correct and it's what is suffocating their streaming channel. Rather than air anything truly rare from their vast library, they choose to only program titles, both movies and television, that have undergone at least some remastering and then either upconverted to HD or in genuine HD, but still not looking good in the process. Anyone with access with TCM or the Warner Archive DVDs will find little that hasn't already been broadcast or released. They are focusing so heavily on picture quality and catering to HD sets that they adamantly refuse to show anything they deem less than pristine.

Add to that an awful, user unfriendly interface and lower tier technology with frequent outages and buffering, and they pose no threat to Netflix other than in choice of older material. Your monthly bill of $9.95 would be much better spent elsewhere.
Their original statement was that they were going to make things available with whatever usable elements they had and that they weren't going to re-master anything. That changed to now they have to re-master everything before they release it. Personally, I'd rather have access to the whole Turner/MGM library sooner rather than later. Give me my Many Happy Returns off of 1-inch instead of not at all.
 

LeoA

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
3,550
Location
North Country
Real Name
Leo
A lot of these old transfers look more than acceptable. I'd gladly take something like what we got for Dennis the Menace that were done for Nickelodeon back in the 80's over nothing at all.

Pristine is great, but I'd hate to see something not make it out when it still looks good just because there's room for improvement that may never have the chance to happen.
 

John Karras

Second Unit
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
337
Real Name
Lawrence
Conrad_SSS said:
1" analog video masters for film-based television programming may have been fine for VHS or even laserdisc, but decades have passed, and utilizing masters made in the '80s from film from this antiquated format will only yield a poor looking DVD.
I disagree. 1" type C was a broadcast standard with resolution exceeding the capacity of most consumer TV sets, with the DVD format able to retain that resolution as a storage medium. The real problem is the shift to flat-screen TV's (LED/LED/Plasma) sets which can't come close to properly displaying SD material in the way a CRT set can. It's not the 1" source material that is deficient, it's the monitor that's being watched that causes such degradation.
 

jimmyjet

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
3,050
Real Name
jimmy
Neil Brock said:
Their original statement was that they were going to make things available with whatever usable elements they had and that they weren't going to re-master anything. That changed to now they have to re-master everything before they release it. Personally, I'd rather have access to the whole Turner/MGM library sooner rather than later. Give me my Many Happy Returns off of 1-inch instead of not at all.
at one point, one would have come up with one conclusion, based upon what was known.

in a very instant, a completely different conclusion would be drawn.

things are not cast in stone !!

this has much to do with why so many of you are flabbergasted when something is released, and i am not.
 

Jack P

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
5,584
Real Name
Jack
I prefer the fact that one studio is taking the time to give us the best possible release with their back catalog. I admit the fact that Warners has taken care of the Top 5 titles on my wish list (The FBI, Girl From UNCLE, Tarzan, Maverick, Dr. Kildare) makes it easier for me to be patient as far as what they do next is concerned, but no studio has done a better job treating its back catalog of TV holdings with greater respect and for that they deserve a thumb's up.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Articles

Forum statistics

Threads
356,710
Messages
5,121,125
Members
144,146
Latest member
SaladinNagasawa
Recent bookmarks
0
Top