Upgrading System. Need Help (1 Viewer)

I started this thread on another forum site and got almost no support. I currently have a Sony HTS-S380 HTiB system that I'm looking to upgrade from. I've considered both getting a HTiB like the Onkyo HT-S5600 or the Onkyo HT-S9400THX, and making my own system.

If I were to make my own system, my budget falls between $600-$800. So far I've chosen this setup:

Receiver: Denon AVR-E400Front L/R: Sony SS-F7000Surround L/R: Sony SS-B1000Center: Sony SS-CSBSubwoofer: Now this is one of the areas I'm having trouble with. Someone previously suggested the Dayton Audio SUB-1200, but I'm concerned about the frequency response not having a low enough bottom end. The front speakers on this setup get lower than the sub. I myself am considering the Sony SA-W2500 which is smaller than the Dayton with less power, but a better frequency range. I definitely need input on the sub choice. Also, both of these are front firing. Is it worth the time and effort for me to find something down firing? I'm concerned that a front firing sub mayy be too directional, but a down firing sub may not work acousticly since the room I have it in is wood/flooring with no carpeting. My total if I stick with the Denon receiver, Sony speakers and sub puts me around $700. If possible I'd like to keep it around that range, but I'm willing to flex up if necesarry seeing as my original budget was $300-$400 lol.

I'm pretty much set on the receiver since it has the features, power, and audio codecs I'm looking for. I'm open to any feedback and replacement of any of the components I've chosen thus far.
Also, I found this under the specs of my old HTiB system. It runs 3ohm speakers and this is the info it gave under THD. I can't tell if this is actuually bad or not so any info on this would be appreciated.

With 3 ohm loads, both
channels driven, from 180 – 20,000 Hz; rated 84 watts per channel minimum RMS power, with no more than 1% total harmonic distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output

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On a scale of 1-5, 5 being "Holy crap! how have you been listening to this garbage?!?", how bad is that?

Your budget doesn't support a subwoofer with "bottom end" you want.Go over budget...get the BIC F12.The "scale"?.005

Also, where are you getting that the Sony sub has better frequency range than the Dayton? Maybe you were looking at the crossover range on the Dayton page where it lists 40-140Hz. The actual low end of the frequency response (assuming +/- 3dB) for the Dayton is 25Hz, whereas the Sony lists a low end of 28Hz (again, assuming +/- 3dB).

The Dayton is a decent performer, but as Sam mentioned, the F12 is the best value out there for $200.

iTylerA said:

If I were to make my own system, my budget falls between $600-$800. So far I've chosen this setup:

Receiver: Denon AVR-E400Front L/R: Sony SS-F7000Surround L/R: Sony SS-B1000Center: Sony SS-CSB
Is it worth the time and effort for me to find something down firing?

On a scale of 1-5, 5 being "Holy crap! how have you been listening to this garbage?!?", how bad is that?

Click to expand...

HOLY CRAP! How can you even hear anymore...you should be deaf by now!

I'm just playing. How speakers sound is very subjective. If you have a good ear you're going to be more particular. A lot of times what you listen to makes a big different too. If you were happy with the old setup then I have a feeling you're really going to like something new. Most HTiB have crappy to mediocre sound so by building your own you should be...well impressed.

Now down to fun stuff...I wouldn't sweat the sub being front or down firing. I would however, suggest that you look at some other subs besides the Sony. Unless you like an all matching set the only ones that matter are the front three in a 5.1 setup. That being said you don't have to get a sony sub just because you have Sony speakers. The BIC F12 is probably where you want to be at this point. I would probably look at less expensive towers (F5000) or even the matching bookshelves (SS-CS5) in order to get the BIC sub over either the Dayton or the Sony.

I wasn't trying to parrot either of you Sam or Jason...you two just beat me too the response.

Let me start off by saying that I appreciate all the help thus far, I got like 50 views on the other site and not one reply.

Jason, you're totally right, I got my specs crossed. Is there really that much difference between the Dayton and the BIC aside from the obvious power difference? I'm almost worried the BIC might be too much power.

ArmSC I'm happy with the volume of the old system, but I went to B&H in New York, and heard the Onkyo HT-S5600 and was blown away by the clarity it presented over the system I have now. Eberyone is saying get the BIC F12 but I'm not sure what it presents over the Dayton. As far as the F7000 vs the s5000 speakers, I get them for the same price($149.99), so I figured why not get the better of the two.The CS5s actually would cost me MORE than the F7000s.($164.99) which makes that choice, easy. Aside from the specs, price/value is why I've chosen Sony Speakers at this point.

Denon AV-E400: $248.88
Sony SS-F7000 $149.99
Sony SS-B1000 $52.49
Sony SS-CSB $127.49
Sony SA-W2500 $69.99 on eBay, $97.49 direct from Sony

I would say I could switch out the center channel, but like you said, the front 3 should be matching. I do agree though, the F12 does seem to be a great value for the price.

There is no such thing as "too much power" for the sub.I'd go subless with the 7000 till you saved up the cost difference for the F12.That Sony brings nothing to the table that running the 7000 full range won't already accomplish.And yes, you can run the front channel full range and still use bass management on the center/surround.

Quick "math"(more educated assumption...)Sony SSF7000 is 90db efficient. The 35(I think) frequency response is probably at -3.The 28 of that sub is probably -10.-3 vs -10 and the 7000 has 100 watts behind them and that sub is packing 60...To overcome the -10 to -3(based on being generous....a 12db slope)...the sub needs 1000 watts. (I'm assuming the -10 on the sub "max volume" is 90db)Meaning if I assume it takes the full 60 watts to produce 28hz at 90db*...Go up to 35(what the -3 on the 7000 is) you have 97 db(ish).So the sub makes 97db(maximum).The Sony 7000 create 35hz at 97db on 10 watts.Sub is killing itself to keep up with the 7000...and the 7000 are being leisurely.*I'm being way generous to the sub. If the -10 volume is 90db. That sub produces 40hz at 100db. 60 watts on board? Not happening.

I'm glad you did that quick math. I been so busy looking that i failed to see how UNDERPOWERED the Sony sub was. The receiver would put out like 90W per channel. and be paired w/ a sub that put out 60W. I do like the idea of driving with the 7000s at least until I can get the F12. and I guess at 150W RMS it's not nearly as bad as I thought. So other than the change in sub, how does my system look?

Ignore "absolute power" ratings. Meaningless(once you know every 3db requires twice the power).That AVR does not have 90x5. Who knows what the reality is...but those speakers will rock a reasonably size room on 10wpc.

TylerA - I was just suggesting that you could step down the speakers if you needed more budget for the better sub. If you can get the 7000's cheaper or the same price as the 5000's they yeah why wouldn't you do that.

I think that Sam has a great point of running the 7000's in a 5.0 for a bit if you needed more cash too. Those 8" drivers seem to reach down pretty low.

Someone else I talked to made the point of not needing a center channel with the 7000s. What do you guys think? I'm also not 100% on the center channel. All the speakers in the lineup are 8ohms but the center is 6ohms. Does that matter at all?

You need the center more than you need a sub. Not sure where it even comes from that you don't need a center. Every AVR is capable of "phantom center" anyway...I wouldn't do it.Does the receiver support 6ohm? (yes...it does)

I thought so, it sounded odd to me too. Someone in another forum also commented on the fact the specs don't mention a variation on the frequency. Should I be concerned?

Specs where...about what?

Specs on the speakers

The specs on the Sony speakers have me a bit
Concerned. They (like the sub) don't tell
You how much of a variation off of a flat line
Measurement. Example- 34hz to 18Khz +/- 3db.
I also haven't seen any speaker list a treble response up to
50KHz...ever.

You don't want a real "wavy" freq response.

Click to expand...

The issue is...Sony, here, is a "cheap speaker". I've heard the SS-B3000. The BIC DV62 sounds better...but it should...it costs twice as much. The DV62 is based on a speaker design that BIC debuted back on the 80s. Look up the V62. Looks the same...but it isn't.The V62 was an all wood speaker(yes, wood veneer) that sold in hifi shops for $300/pair...in the 80s and 90s.The DV62 is a particle board glued cabinet assembled in China with vinyl that doesn't even attempt to be anything but...that sells for $120.Same tweeter and woofer...not even close to the same cabinet. All the issues you can find about "ringing cabinet" and "not very well braced" and "lacking in baffle material" for the DV62...do not appy to the V62.Essentially...the Sony SS line are the cheapest speakers you can buy...that don't suck.

You think I can do better within the budget at hand? The Sony speakers sans subwoofer would cost about $329. The issue is I haven't seen anything else out there comparable in price with similar specs. Someone did suggest:

Floor standers http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-FS5.../dp/B008NCD2S4Centerhttp://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-C22...hannel+speakerSurroundshttp://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS2...neer+Bookshelf

which would put me at about $477. for the extra money, I noticed they all have a lower sensitivity and impedance than the ones I chose that are $150 less. Am I missing something here?

The Pio AJ is everybody's cheap speaker love interest at the moment.I've never been in love with them...for one of the reasons you just noted. Everything else is more efficient.Polk R is in this class. Fluance as well.There isn't much out there to buy, for 5 speakers, and stay under $500.The old stalwart is the BIC DV. They created this market.

You can get that same set packaged together for $430

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-PK52FS-5-0-Theater-Speaker/dp/B00IRH0QMA/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1412871795&sr=8-9&keywords=pioneer+andrew+jones+speaker

I don't know that you would gain anything over the Sony speakers that you have picked out other than it's a complete voice matched set with the pioneers. I know that people have raved about the AJ Pioneers since they came out but it really comes down to what you think sounds best. I've have a set of the SS-B1000 and they are pretty good but the BS-22 probably sound better. Particular the bass but that's to be expected.

If you want towers I don't know that you're going to find a much better deal than the Sony's. If you were to move down to books or sats for all your speakers then you might be able to get something but then you would have to have a sub.

Forgot about Fluance...included towers in these sets...thank you Sam for reminding me. SX set AV set