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A Few Words About A few words about...™ Once Upon a Time in America - Extended Director's Cut -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

Robert Harris

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"There no crying is baseball." - Jimmy Dugan

"Film doesn't lie." - Phil Feiner

As I placed Warner Bros. new Blu-ray of Sergio Leone's "Extended Director's Cut" of Once Upon a Time in America in my Oppo, I was wondering how the archival techs in Italy working on the new long(est) version of the gangster epic, could create something from a film element that didn't allow them to do so.

"Film doesn't lie."

There's a neat little hardcover book that comes with the new elegantly designed boxed set, that describes the awful state of the elements that were cut back into the long version of the film, heretofore based upon original negative elements, and how they were made to match as seamlessly as possible.

I was so amazed by the still images in an addendum sheet, as well as information in other materials relevant to the restoration, that I couldn't wait to see how digital magic had brought these elements back to life.

Was there some process of which I was totally unaware?  Possible.

Searching the new Blu-ray for the sequences restored to the film, I was distressed that what I was seeing were truly ugly representations of the film.  But precisely what one might expect from a piece of color positive stock that had gone through three decades of dye failure.

Decidedly ugly, but there to fill out character and story in a way that I appreciated.  Longer is, in this case, better.

I can only believe that somewhere between Italy and the U.S., something went amiss in communication regarding before and after images.

In this case, it appears that someone had taken very nice, and normal examples of the film, as it should appear, and probably degraded them to look as the extended footage now appears in the film.

Confusing?

That point made, the extra 22 minutes definitely add to the value of the film, especially (actually only) to those who treasure this masterpiece of cinema.

As long as viewers are aware that quality drops to a totally dupey and ugly state when it hits extended material, there's no problem.

The main body of the film is also re-timed.  I had presumed, as I'm not an expert on this film, nor have I researched its original color, that modern sequences were normal color.  In the last WB Blu-ray they seem lovely.  They're now drained of color by at least 50%, which I don't understand.  The new boxed set is inclusive of the original long version on a separate disc, which is the old, ie. current WB version of the film, with what I perceive to be proper color.

I've been waiting to see what the situation was with this film, and how it was adapted in Italy.  I'm in agreement with Mr. Kimmel's thoughts, as not being a fan.

Image -  5* (original film)

             0.5 (reinstated footage)

Audio - 5

(the audio for reinstated for sequences works far more    

            seamlessly than image.)

My advice is to not reference print materials on the visual portion of the restoration, and you'll be fine.  Further, I'd view the 229 minute version first, and then fill in the extra scenes from the other disc.

This has me mystified.

As an aside, the cardboard sheet attached to the back of the box, which would be seen on store shelves, and which I presume was created by the WB publicity folks in Burbank, does make note of reduced quality.

Highly Recommended

RAH

 
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Stephen_J_H

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I'm waiting for Bruce to chime in on this, as I believe he has seen the Italian BD, which has issues of its own and may be able to comment on how the restored segments look on that disc.
 
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haineshisway

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I'm waiting impatiently. I can't tell from Robert's thoughts if they used the Eyetalian "restoration" which was hideous, with terrible brown color. The previous Warner Blu-ray, whatever issues one may have had with it, had perfect color. I'm praying that that element was the basis of this Blu-ray and that the horrid-looking extended footage is cut into that, and that they, unlike the Eyetalians, haven't degraded the color to match that faded mess. Praying. But, for me, none of the added footage is that interesting. One scene with De Niro and I can't remember who at the gravesite had production sound - it had never even been mixed and it was horrible - has that been fixed here?

EDIT - this is the new director's extended version of this post.

I've pretty much now ascertained that what we're getting in this set is the extended director's cut transfer, which is, from what I've been able to discern, the same thing that's on the Italian Blu-ray - in other words FADED color (either off a faded element or purposely drained of color to try and match up the new stuff better) that in no way resembles the film as released. The film as released is represented properly, color-wise, in the previously released 229 minute Blu-ray. My understanding is that that transfer is in this set, so I can breathe easier because I will never ever watch the extended version due to its incorrect color. I can't imagine that the extended director's version would make Mr. Leone or Mr. Delli Colli happy, since it in no way resembles what they shot. I owned a stunning 35mm LPP print of the long version - color-wise it is exactly the same as the previously released transfer which thankfully is included in this set. Whether that transfer has new authoring from the previous disc I know not - I'm just happy it's there.
 

Dave H

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I guess I'll just buy the original disc as I've been wanting to watch this movie for a long time now.
 

Bob Cashill

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Disappointing to say the least. I'm seeing this at the NY Film Festival on Saturday and was hoping for an improvement on that dire Italian disc. Looks like I'll just be seeing it on a bigger screen.
 
P

Patrick Donahue

So my question is... as a film fan who has never seen this, which version should I watch when the set arrives Tuesday?
 

Bob Cashill

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The 229 minute. Ideally, given the circumstances, the other 22 minutes, in their worse for wear condition, would have been relegated to deleted scenes.
 

Robert Harris

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Bob Cashill said:
The 229 minute. Ideally, given the circumstances, the other 22 minutes, in their worse for wear condition, would have been relegated to deleted scenes.
Agreed. First time viewing this monumental, and extraordinary film, should be transparent to the cinematic experience. The longer cut with added footage is a curiosity, and not the way to have an initial viewing.Stick with the 229 cut, which also has better color and densities.RAH
 

Geoff_D

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RAH, does the longer version have very poor blacks, almost like a milky grey rather than black? The gamma was waaaaay too low on the "Eyetalian" version, and as shitty as the colour looks I could almost put up with it if the blacks were actually black. It's sad that the restorers felt that they had to degrade the main footage so badly in terms of colour and density just to make it match up with the added footage. The difference between such things is jarring, natch, (the long version of Blues Brothers is similar, with footage cut in from a preview print that has greeny looking colour and poor blacks) but it is what is, and people should know better than to hobble the main body of the film.

I've got the original US BD and the "Eyetalian" one, so no sale here.
 

FoxyMulder

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Does the 229 minute cut of the film contain a new transfer or is it the same one, i mean the colours, gamma levels and encode may be poor on that italian release but it still has bags of detail which no doubt are the result of a new scan, i'd buy this for the 229 minute edition if it had a new film scan but if it's the same old release then i think i will pass.

http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2738&disc2=2737&cap1=25254&cap2=25238&art=full&image=14&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=
 

Michel_Hafner

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Maybe we should start a petition to release a version of the new scan with the old colour timing applied. I really don't want to miss out on the added detail from the 4K scan, but neither put up with any revisionist colour grading.
 

Geoff_D

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FoxyMulder said:
Does the 229 minute cut of the film contain a new transfer or is it the same one, i mean the colours, gamma levels and encode may be poor on that italian release but it still has bags of detail which no doubt are the result of a new scan, i'd buy this for the 229 minute edition if it had a new film scan but if it's the same old release then i think i will pass.

http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=2738&disc2=2737&cap1=25254&cap2=25238&art=full&image=14&hd_multiID=296&action=1&lossless=
It's Warners. You will see pigs fly before they do a new video encode for something like this. The 229 minute version appears to be the exact same disc as was released before.
 

Wade Sowers

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Bob Cashill said:
Disappointing to say the least. I'm seeing this at the NY Film Festival on Saturday and was hoping for an improvement on that dire Italian disc. Looks like I'll just be seeing it on a bigger screen.
Do let us know what you think - I would love to be sitting next to you, assuming you sit pretty close to the screen.
 

Peter Neski

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Like I said on earlier threads ,that last BR wasn't any good ,The Film I saw only a while back at MOMA looked as good as Film could Look!!
(no the screening with DeNiro ,that didn't look as good)so from what I hear about a 5 score means warner screwed up big time ,Bad enough they make up suffer looking at that horrible cover art
Hoping to get Goodfella fans to buy this
That last BR was lame to say the least
 

haineshisway

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Lord Dalek said:
Isn't the 229-minute version Leone's prefered cut anyway?
Of course. He was, at one time, planning to release the other footage as part of an Italian TV miniseries event, but it never even got close to happening. I think Mr. Leone would not be happy with what's happening here. And even if the 229 minute cut is the same transfer as before in terms of encode, I would still watch it a 1000 times before I would ever look at the travesty of the extended director's cut (and how can they call it that when Leone is dead and did not approve such a thing) - if people prefer extra detail to accurate color, well, they can have it. All I can tell you is when Mr. De Niro walks through the Big Apple door in the present, the apple was never orange, which it is in the Italian "restoration" - apples are, BTW, red, just as it is in the previous Blu-ray transfer. Red, not orange.
 

MatthewA

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If they had the ability to make it red, they would. But to paraphrase all those men who weren't doctors but played them on TV, film restoration technology has only come so far.
 

haineshisway

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MatthewA said:
If they had the ability to make it red, they would. But to paraphrase all those men who weren't doctors but played them on TV, film restoration technology has only come so far.
Why wouldn't they have the ability to make it red, for heaven's sake. It's red, as it should be, in the previous Blu-ray, it was red back in the day and these restoration "experts" clearly had no clue - sorry, I know this film inside out like the back and front of my hand. Anyone who thinks this is a restoration problem is wrong. It's a decision and a wrong one. Whatever element Warners used for their previous Blu-ray was a timed IP, timed correctly, that is.
 

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