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Playing SACDs on a SONY BDP-S270 (2 Viewers)

blakean

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Hello!I have just received a Sony BDP-S270 and have realized that it plays SACD discs. However, it automatically chooses the multichannel layer when available, and my receiver seems to have a problem reading it (although it plays the 2-CH layer just fine).How do you change between the layers of a SACD with this model? Apparently it's not even officially supported, but I thought that if it plays the discs, it should also be able to perform a simple task like switching between the layers.If anyone has this particular model, or has had a similar problem, I would appreciate this info.On a related note, is there any particular reason why my LG surround receiver (TS913ES) outputs the multichannel in a tinny, distorted manner? It plays the 5.1 surround on blurays on the same Sony player through the same HDMI cable just fine!Thanks!
 

schan1269

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First. That LG is not a receiver. It is HTiB.Second, if this Sony is only set up for native DSD, that is why it is tinny/distorted. That HTiB won't decipher DSD. Maybe the BD player isn't meant to do DSD/PCM conversion.I don't own that BD player, so no help with it.
 

blakean

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I would think it's a DSD issue if I also couldn't play the 2-CH, but I can. I am assuming that the 2-CH SACD layer is DSD as well.

I know it's the stereo SACD layer because I'm playing a non-hybrid disc.
 

schan1269

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Now that I'm home(not using my phone from the work parking lot...)

Better explanation(and more info for you to digest and see what answers are out there)...

I assume that HTiB only accepts 2.0 PCM and MCH LPCM off HDMI(if it accepts more than that...it would be the first one ever to do so). I'm not downloading the manual for it...but if it exists at manualslib...I'll look at it.

BD players, lately, are losing their ability to output PCM at more than 2.0. Why? Most consumers either buy a soundbar...or a full fledge AVR based system.

HTiB falls in the middle. Yes they do 5.1, but they mostly rely on "the other end" to do the decoding. Problem is, "the other end" is losing the ability to do the decoding(such as XBox 360 can't output 6 channel PCM over HDMI. Only DD...so if this HTiB doesn't accept 5.1 DD over HDMI...you are SOL).

I will look further, short of downloading the manual for this HTiB, to see what I can come up with...but this info should help you make further sense of the owners manual.
 

schan1269

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By the way...

Pre-decode information is called 5.1 or 7.1.

Once it is decoded (which is where the L/PCM comes from) it is called 6 or 8 channel MCH*.

That is why you should "never" see 5.1 PCM or 6 channel DD...

So...essentially...5.1 DD is decoded to 6 channel PCM.

*short for Multi CHannel
 

blakean

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The receiver, (or whatever you want to call it: it receives the signals), has played everything without a hitch over the HDMI until now. It doesn't claim to decode DSD, but I thought it would at least downsample to PCM multichannel. Like I said, it plays multichannel DTS (etc...) in surround sound. Why would a multichannel SACD layer be any different?

The manual was of no help to me.

All that's listed on the LG site, audio-wise, is:

Audio Capabilities

[*]Digital/Analog Conversion 192MHZ/24bit
[*]LPCM Yes
[*]2 Channel Down Mix Yes
[*]Dolby® Digital Yes
[*]DTS™ Yes
[/list]
 

schan1269

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SACD is DSD. DSD is not DTS nor DD.

Even budget end AVR(like the Denon E200, Yamaha RX-V377) don't do DSD either. If they don't...

I saw that same info at LG/EU.

Problem is I see nowhere where it says if DD or DTS are coax/Toslink only...or off the HDMI as well.

Since this one does not have a DVD/BD player...I'll give it the benefit of the doubt it accepts them off HDMI(I have yet to see a DVD/BD HTiB accept DD or DTS over HDMI).

Back to this player...

My guess is it doesn't change DSD to PCM very well. It apparently does...or you would hear nothing.

Same was as you would hear nothing sending a bitstream of Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD/HR-MA to the LG...silence.

What would I do...if you have many SACD....or plan to get into them...

Find a used Oppo 970.

It sends DSD as PCM over HDMI. I'm pretty sure it can send DVD-A as PCM as well. I have one of them...but my AVR can accept whatever is thrown at them.
 

schan1269

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By the way...DaveF just went through a similar situation replacing a dying AVR and wanted a new one that played DSD*. He originally wanted to spend $250. I think he ended up spending(or is planning to spend) $400.

DSD was that important to him. But it was also a 2nd system where he didn't want to spend big...like he does on his main system.

*his actual universal player could send DSD natively or as PCM. His dying AVR was made before "DSD over HDMI" was available.
 

blakean

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Everything I have connected to the LG unit is HDMI. I have no other connections nor have I needed them to use my devices. This includes getting DD and DTS over HDMI.

If it's true that it's a DSD issue, how can you explain being able to hear, loud and clear, my 2-CH SACD DSD layer, while getting that crappy output with the Multichannel?

Getting a new unit is the ideal answer, but that's not going to happen immediately. I was hoping there was something I can do to use the devices I actually own.
 

schan1269

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Maybe the dynamic range is too much. That system only pulls 140 watts off the wall. Say 15 for switching, that leaves 125.Take half 125 to 62. 62 divided by 6...10 watts and inefficient speakers.
 

blakean

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I've replaced the subwoofer and the satellite speakers that originally came with this set with Bose speakers. I doubt it's a power issue.

Anyway, thanks for your input!
 

bigshot

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It's probably defaulting to the redbook layer when it plays 2 channel. You need to set your player to output PCM instead of DSD most likely.
 

Phil A

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I have a Sony BDP-BX37 which is the same as the BDPS370, although I don’t use it tons (in the old house in the office system, in the new one in what is basically a guest bedroom system). I also have set-up the 380 for someone. In the audio settings there is a DSD Output Mode (so if the rec'r does not support DSD you turn if off). When ‘on’ is selected it outputs DSD signals from the HDMI jack and when ‘off’ is selection it outputs PCM signals when playing a SACD. There is also a music setting. For SACDs, there are settings for the SACD layer (assuming it is a hybrid) or CD layer and a ‘Super Audio CD Playback Channel’ that selects between the 2 channel and multi-channel layers. The settings menus are structured very much in the same manner as the PS3.
 

blakean

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Perhaps for the BDP-S370. Unfortunately, the BDP-S270 doesn't have these menu options. But thanks nonetheless!
 

Phil A

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blakean said:
Perhaps for the BDP-S370. Unfortunately, the BDP-S270 doesn't have these menu options. But thanks nonetheless!
Yes - since it does not officially say SACD it is a bit different:

http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-home.pl?mdl=BDPS270

https://docs.sony.com/release/BDPS270.pdf

see page 23 of the above manual for Audio Settings

You may wish to try the above audio settings and also defining your speakers. It may well be that 2-channel will come out of the DVD player analog jacks when you use the setting in the S270 to tell it via analog you have just 2 speakers. It's one of those things that you may have to just try a few different things. I'd imagine it could be similar on my old FAT PS3 that does not play SACDs. I had it in the guest room before the Sony Blu-Ray player and just moved it to the closet. I vaguely remember reading that it may be able to play a DSD disc (which is not the same as an SACD disc). I just swapped the players playing with video calibrations (neither the PS3 or Sony Blu-Ray was really any better than one another or comparable to an Oppo and when I upgrade something down the road one of the Oppo players will be replacing it) and just left the Blu-Ray player in there for now (I have Marantz DV9600 DVD universal player in there already for CD or SACD playback which is much better anyway). I have a fat PS3 which plays SACDs and is hacked to burn DSD files when I get disc so I can play it on my music server in the main system.

With the patents on CD expiring at the turn of the century, Sony and Philips invented SACD for better sound (and Warner was pushing DVD-Audio) with copyright protection. Unfortunately, both formats required special players and the masses (vs. a semi-neurotic audiophile like me :lol: ) care more about convenience than sound quality, not to mention the discs were more expensive than CDs. It was about royalties more than quality. They could have used the standard DVD format to put 24/96 audio and a multi-channel Dolby Digital mix on that standard DVD and gotten wider support. Don't get me wrong, I love the quality of great recording in as hi-rez as they are available. I just don't think it was done with as much consideration as what the masses want. It is OK to do that with classical albums as a success in that format may equate to 10-25,000 album says.
 

Jason Charlton

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blakean said:
I have just received a Sony BDP-S270 and have realized that it plays SACD discs...

...Apparently it's not even officially supported
blakean said:
Perhaps for the BDP-S370. Unfortunately, the BDP-S270 doesn't have these menu options. But thanks nonetheless!
Clearly, the player you have is not compatible with your playback requirements. You are trying to get it to do something it does not officially support and is incapable of doing.
blakean said:
I've replaced the subwoofer and the satellite speakers that originally came with this set with Bose speakers. I doubt it's a power issue.
Replacing HTiB speakers at all is not really a great idea. The fact that you replaced them with Bose (assuming they are the small cube-style speakers?) does not 'improve' anything.

I don't know much about SACD, but my understanding is that the format provides increased fidelity over standard redbook CD. If increased audio resolution and fidelity is important to you, why are you using a player that doesn't support it, running through a relatively inexpensive system that doesn't support it, and listening to it using speakers that are almost universally recognized as inferior and substandard?

Sorry to be so blunt, but the components you've chosen seem way out of whack with what you want to achieve.
 

Phil A

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The cheap Sony Blu-Ray players are not the greatest on SACD. I've had mine connected to a better receiver that does DSD and it was much better but for me it still is not something I'd want either for a main or secondary system. As the other above post noted, upgrading other components may be a better bang for the buck. I have a friend who has an old Sony CD/SACD changer and does not own tons of SACDs. Based on familiarity with his set-up, I recommended a DAC for him for music playback. There's only so much that certain components can do.
 

blakean

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Jason Charlton said:
Clearly, the player you have is not compatible with your playback requirements. You are trying to get it to do something it does not officially support and is incapable of doing.


Replacing HTiB speakers at all is not really a great idea. The fact that you replaced them with Bose (assuming they are the small cube-style speakers?) does not 'improve' anything.

I don't know much about SACD, but my understanding is that the format provides increased fidelity over standard redbook CD. If increased audio resolution and fidelity is important to you, why are you using a player that doesn't support it, running through a relatively inexpensive system that doesn't support it, and listening to it using speakers that are almost universally recognized as inferior and substandard?

Sorry to be so blunt, but the components you've chosen seem way out of whack with what you want to achieve.

Actually, replacing the satellite speakers and subwoofer substantially improved the sound, which is all I wanted, so I'm happy with that.

As for the player being incapable of playing multichannel SACD, this apparently isn't true, which is why I've been attempting to duplicate the results:

http://www.sa-cd.net/showthread/96350//y?page=first


Also, I have no delusions about the quality of this setup. But if I could replace everything, I wouldn't be posting here in the first place.
I'm not interested in debating the quality of my components. I am merely trying to see if I can get my devices to do a particular thing.
 

blakean

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Phil A said:
Yes - since it does not officially say SACD it is a bit different:

http://esupport.sony.com/US/p/model-home.pl?mdl=BDPS270

https://docs.sony.com/release/BDPS270.pdf

see page 23 of the above manual for Audio Settings

You may wish to try the above audio settings and also defining your speakers. It may well be that 2-channel will come out of the DVD player analog jacks when you use the setting in the S270 to tell it via analog you have just 2 speakers. It's one of those things that you may have to just try a few different things. I'd imagine it could be similar on my old FAT PS3 that does not play SACDs. I had it in the guest room before the Sony Blu-Ray player and just moved it to the closet. I vaguely remember reading that it may be able to play a DSD disc (which is not the same as an SACD disc). I just swapped the players playing with video calibrations (neither the PS3 or Sony Blu-Ray was really any better than one another or comparable to an Oppo and when I upgrade something down the road one of the Oppo players will be replacing it) and just left the Blu-Ray player in there for now (I have Marantz DV9600 DVD universal player in there already for CD or SACD playback which is much better anyway). I have a fat PS3 which plays SACDs and is hacked to burn DSD files when I get disc so I can play it on my music server in the main system.

With the patents on CD expiring at the turn of the century, Sony and Philips invented SACD for better sound (and Warner was pushing DVD-Audio) with copyright protection. Unfortunately, both formats required special players and the masses (vs. a semi-neurotic audiophile like me :lol: ) care more about convenience than sound quality, not to mention the discs were more expensive than CDs. It was about royalties more than quality. They could have used the standard DVD format to put 24/96 audio and a multi-channel Dolby Digital mix on that standard DVD and gotten wider support. Don't get me wrong, I love the quality of great recording in as hi-rez as they are available. I just don't think it was done with as much consideration as what the masses want. It is OK to do that with classical albums as a success in that format may equate to 10-25,000 album says.
I thank you for your attention. Unfortunately, I've already tinkered with the settings to no avail. The S270 does not have SACD-specific menu settings, even with updated firmware (most likely because it's not officially supported). In my experience, however, devices often perform more than is printed on the box. And, being an amateur, I do not always make the right connections to bring these capabilities out. Maybe the only option is to upgrade, but I thought it was worth a shot.
 

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