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Lossy soundtracks on BD


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#1 of 12 Brenty

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Posted August 12 2014 - 02:59 AM

OK, I know it's supposedly a space-saving measure, but why do so many studios (particularly Warner) offer it when there are several superior and similarly-sized alternatives available? These are, of course, DTS, Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution.

 

I just watched Bullitt on BD last night and it occurred to me that the HD DVD actually had better audio (DD+) than the BD (DD)... That ain't right!


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#2 of 12 Wayne_j

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Posted August 12 2014 - 06:13 AM

Warner currently has lossless on all new titles, they just didn't re-do any discs on titles before they went lossless.



#3 of 12 FoxyMulder

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Posted August 12 2014 - 06:25 AM

OK, I know it's supposedly a space-saving measure, but why do so many studios (particularly Warner) offer it when there are several superior and similarly-sized alternatives available? These are, of course, DTS, Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution.

 

I just watched Bullitt on BD last night and it occurred to me that the HD DVD actually had better audio (DD+) than the BD (DD)... That ain't right!

 

It's all in the mix, i have heard lossy soundtracks that sound superb, of course they might sound even better lossless but the sound mix is most important, if the mix is poor then a lossless track won't save it, but i agree, no excuse today for not being lossless.

 

I have found that sometimes you hear something louder and the perception can be it's better because of that, alter levels with whatever other track you are comparing with and more often than not the soundtracks end up being pretty identical.


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#4 of 12 Dr Griffin

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Posted August 12 2014 - 01:03 PM

I don't mind it on older films for a bit of nostalgia, especially the earlier Dolby stuff. I'd prefer to have options, as some discs do give you. Say a film from the 80s with a new lossless 5.1 or 7.1 option along with the original mix in lossy, such as Dolby Stereo Surround ( & SR in theaters). I'll coax out to my Dolby decoder for older lossy audio options to ensure proper matrixing (better for DVDs too). If you only get one option, at this late date it should be lossless for any movie being released to home video.


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#5 of 12 MatthewA

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Posted August 12 2014 - 01:17 PM

Muppets Most Wanted, a new release, is the latest addition to the lossy family. It has a DTS-HR soundtrack rather than a DTS-MA one.


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#6 of 12 Stephen_J_H

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Posted August 12 2014 - 01:34 PM

Eagle Vision's SD Blu-rays are typically released with DTS HDHR tracks. What I find interesting is that the Muppets Most Wanted DTS HDHR track is a constant bit rate track at 2Mbps. Some DTS HDMA tracks have bitrates lower than that.


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#7 of 12 FoxyMulder

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Posted August 12 2014 - 01:35 PM

Muppets Most Wanted, a new release, is the latest addition to the lossy family. It has a DTS-HR soundtrack rather than a DTS-MA one.

 

Not so bad as that's very high bitrate dts but strange they couldn't fit a lossless track on the disc.


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"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

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#8 of 12 AnthonyClarke

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Posted August 12 2014 - 04:43 PM

Malcolm makes a very good point when he mentions how some people think compressed sound is 'better' than uncompressed because it's louder .. I find that it often takes people a while for their ears to adjust to the unforced nature of SACD sound because they're used to the fake dynamics of some badly-engineered lossy music.


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#9 of 12 andySu

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Posted August 13 2014 - 02:48 AM

I don't mind it on older films for a bit of nostalgia, especially the earlier Dolby stuff. I'd prefer to have options, as some discs do give you. Say a film from the 80s with a new lossless 5.1 or 7.1 option along with the original mix in lossy, such as Dolby Stereo Surround ( & SR in theaters). I'll coax out to my Dolby decoder for older lossy audio options to ensure proper matrixing (better for DVDs too). If you only get one option, at this late date it should be lossless for any movie being released to home video.

So what part of Bullitt is upsetting Brenty? I have the bluray and thought it was Dolby 5.1, no its the documentary about film editing. They should have the film in Dolby 5.1 with a fully original MONO mix and keep the documentary in mono. 

 

Got the real Dolby SR here, as well Dolby SR on the two CP500.

 

Maybe some waterfalls of Bullitt Laserdisc vs DVD vs HD-DVD vs bluray. Too bad only have the one version.

 

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#10 of 12 Dr Griffin

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Posted August 13 2014 - 06:06 AM

Yeah, Blu-ray players will just output the 2 channels on the stereo tracks, even the OPPO; you have to get that out of the player via digital stream to a decoder for a better listening experience.



#11 of 12 McCrutchy

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Posted August 13 2014 - 07:39 AM

I really think it's disgusting, the way we are still seeing releases with non-lossless audio. WB is not out of the woods yet--look at the animation releases (Cartoon Network, Adult Swim, Looney Tunes) and the Friends BD set. I have a feeling the Batman TV Series set will also be presented with lossy audio, as there appears to be too many compression issues with the discs already (only 12 discs for 3019 minutes of content, with multiple dubs and subtitles).

 

There are also some 2014 catalog titles from Sony in Europe/Asia (e.g. GildaHudson Hawk) that have only lossy Dolby Digital. From SONY. 

 

I have seen many arguments that [insert title] doesn't "need" lossless audio for whatever reason, and I think it's complete BS. The consumer cannot infer from hearing a lossy track that a lossless one is not necessary.

 

I think one of the greatest errors on the BD format, was the early normalization of lossy audio. Yes, it is in the Blu-ray standard set out by the BDA, but so is 720p video, and we rarely, if ever, see a release where the main feature is 720p and not 1080i/p.  Now, we get release after release worldwide that suffers from non-lossless audio, mostly catalog titles. Okay, don't want to pay DTS or Dolby fees? Fine. Give us the LPCM track. Especially for older films, LPCM 1.0/2.0 doesn't take up a whole lot of room (2.0 is 2304 kbps at 24-bit, and 1536 kbps at 16-bit) of course, for 5.1, that's a different story, but when studios are already paying the license fees anyway, I don't get why Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA are not used.

 

I think that, in 2014, lossless audio should be de facto mandatory on a Blu-ray main feature, the way that 1080p video is. I want the full experience Blu-ray can provide, not just half of it.

 

And to be clear, no DTS-HD HR (High Resolution) audio is not lossless, and not okay on a new release film. At all. Hopefully, Disney international will provide Muppets Most Wanted the full lossless track.


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#12 of 12 Stephen_J_H

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Posted August 13 2014 - 07:12 PM

I really think it's disgusting, the way we are still seeing releases with non-lossless audio. WB is not out of the woods yet--look at the animation releases (Cartoon Network, Adult Swim, Looney Tunes) and the Friends BD set. I have a feeling the Batman TV Series set will also be presented with lossy audio, as there appears to be too many compression issues with the discs already (only 12 discs for 3019 minutes of content, with multiple dubs and subtitles).

There are also some 2014 catalog titles from Sony in Europe/Asia (e.g. Gilda, Hudson Hawk) that have only lossy Dolby Digital. From SONY.

I have seen many arguments that [insert title] doesn't "need" lossless audio for whatever reason, and I think it's complete BS. The consumer cannot infer from hearing a lossy track that a lossless one is not necessary.

I think one of the greatest errors on the BD format, was the early normalization of lossy audio. Yes, it is in the Blu-ray standard set out by the BDA, but so is 720p video, and we rarely, if ever, see a release where the main feature is 720p and not 1080i/p. Now, we get release after release worldwide that suffers from non-lossless audio, mostly catalog titles. Okay, don't want to pay DTS or Dolby fees? Fine. Give us the LPCM track. Especially for older films, LPCM 1.0/2.0 doesn't take up a whole lot of room (2.0 is 2304 kbps at 24-bit, and 1536 kbps at 16-bit) of course, for 5.1, that's a different story, but when studios are already paying the license fees anyway, I don't get why Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA are not used.

I think that, in 2014, lossless audio should be de facto mandatory on a Blu-ray main feature, the way that 1080p video is. I want the full experience Blu-ray can provide, not just half of it.

And to be clear, no DTS-HD HR (High Resolution) audio is not lossless, and not okay on a new release film. At all. Hopefully, Disney international will provide Muppets Most Wanted the full lossless track.

On the Batman series topic, 3019 minutes over 12 discs works out to just over 4 hours a disc @ 1.33:1; black bars on the sides take up no space. DTS HDMA 1.0 or 2.0 tracks for multiple audio tracks should work just fine; no need for a 5.1 mix. Subtitles take up a negligible amount of space.

In terms of why lossy tracks are used, there is an argument to be made (validity aside) that the target audience for certain titles cannot differentiate between high bit rate lossy tracks and lossless tracks. If it is less expensive to use a lossy master for physical media (and "everyone" wants to go streaming these days), and "most people can't tell the difference", that's what they will do. Vote with your dollars.
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