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Official Atmos Home Theater Thread UPDATED With First Impressions

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#121 of 139 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted September 14 2014 - 07:27 PM

Beside how reflecting sound introduces distortion and also soaks up certain frequencies I honestly do not see how bouncing sound off a wall sounds more spacious than a speaker aimed at the listener?  Sounds like you had a great time at the Dolby Atmos Demo at CEDIA but I think I will stick with the direct route.  But also to be able to have more than four atmos channels you would have to duplicate the side surround channels down the side of the room.


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#122 of 139 OFFLINE   DanH1972

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Posted September 14 2014 - 09:36 PM

Beside how reflecting sound introduces distortion and also soaks up certain frequencies I honestly do not see how bouncing sound off a wall sounds more spacious than a speaker aimed at the listener?  Sounds like you had a great time at the Dolby Atmos Demo at CEDIA but I think I will stick with the direct route.  But also to be able to have more than four atmos channels you would have to duplicate the side surround channels down the side of the room.

 

Not if you used a Steinway or Trinnov processor.  Granted, they are big bucks.  A Dolby engineer stated to me that he was working on a 9.1.4 rendering block (probably for the mainstream companies and chipsets) and agreed that Atmos was just at the beginning stages.  The base layout Steinway and Trinnov were using was in fact 9.1.4 and it was superior in scope to 7.1.4, which is the best any of the "regular" partners like Denon and Onkyo could really muster.  I say that because having a minimum of four overheads is really critical.

 

You can do 9.1.2 on some of the upper level "regular guy" products, but you lose two of those vitally important overhead surrounds.  The 9.1.2 or 9.1.4 layouts use two side wall surrounds.  This creates a basic lateral pan-through array and, like in the cinema, really helps create a more seamless 3D effect.



#123 of 139 OFFLINE   skads_187

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Posted September 17 2014 - 01:21 PM

You can still use the ceiling speakers for Dolby Surround upmixing.  And you'll want Studio Reference speakers for front and rear top speakers to timbre match with your eventual front and surround Studios.  I don't recommend ADP surrounds for Atmos.  Their tweeters/mid ranges are wired as dipoles.

 

Since Paradigm in-ceilings probably don't meet Atmos specifications for dispersion I would probably use angled models for both pairs, making sure that the angle pattern matches the recommended installation parameters once mounted in the ceiling.

 

so heres the weird thing I had emailed paradigm about the AMS-150R which i now agree wont be timbre matched. however what is interesting, he referred to his engineers and he confirmed that that they do offer wide dispersion. 

I think i still need to go with the SA-15R-30, cause they are cheaper than the SA-10R

 

heres another question though, what ceiling speakers can i get if i go with speakers like Salk Songtowers set, or Ascends Sienna set (or other internet speakers that might not sell matching ceiling speakers)



#124 of 139 OFFLINE   DanH1972

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Posted September 17 2014 - 01:38 PM

so heres the weird thing I had emailed paradigm about the AMS-150R which i now agree wont be timbre matched. however what is interesting, he referred to his engineers and he confirmed that that they do offer wide dispersion. 

I think i still need to go with the SA-15R-30, cause they are cheaper than the SA-10R

 

heres another question though, what ceiling speakers can i get if i go with speakers like Salk Songtowers set, or Ascends Sienna set (or other internet speakers that might not sell matching ceiling speakers)

 

No idea.  You'll probably have to keep pestering them until they release their own 3D surround friendly models.  Or... you'll have to ceiling mount their matching bookshelves and angle them to fire towards the MLP due to their less wide dispersion patterns.



#125 of 139 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted September 17 2014 - 08:05 PM

Press Conference for Dolby Atmos hosted last week at CEDIA

 


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#126 of 139 ONLINE   schan1269

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Posted September 17 2014 - 09:44 PM

No idea.  You'll probably have to keep pestering them until they release their own 3D surround friendly models.  Or... you'll have to ceiling mount their matching bookshelves and angle them to fire towards the MLP due to their less wide dispersion patterns.

 

 

Unless you are putting Atmos in an enormous room...the dispersion "issue" is being overblown. I haven't measured yet...but I'm guessing my 4 will be about an 8 by 11 rectangle. 4 BIC DV52, the speakers I'm going to use, will have no problem covering the area...and they aren't exactly "wide dispersion"...



#127 of 139 OFFLINE   Dr Griffin

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Posted September 18 2014 - 07:03 AM

Unless you are putting Atmos in an enormous room...the dispersion "issue" is being overblown. I haven't measured yet...but I'm guessing my 4 will be about an 8 by 11 rectangle. 4 BIC DV52, the speakers I'm going to use, will have no problem covering the area...and they aren't exactly "wide dispersion"...

 

Any thoughts on the in-ceiling speakers that enable tilting the speaker toward the listening area?



#128 of 139 ONLINE   schan1269

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Posted September 18 2014 - 07:11 AM

In-wall/ceiling speakers should only be bought if they include a movable tweeter. For any application.

My speakers will hang at a roughly 30 degree angle(from horizontal) pointed at a spot 40% from the front.

Tweaking from that starting point.
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#129 of 139 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

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Posted September 18 2014 - 08:38 PM

That was a very nice press conference and it was nice to get some information regarding what to expect upgrading to Atmos.

 

Transformers being the first movie out of the gate in Atmos will be nice IMHO.  But since I do not currently own titles like Gravity or Oblivion and since these will most likely be offered with Atmos mixes in the near future.  I will put these two titles off until the Blu-ray are released with a Dolby Atmos track and if they are held long enough for  4K blu-ray that is ok with me as well.  But Transformers will be the first Atmos based movie in my collection and I am hoping for a good Atmos catalog within 3-4 years.


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#130 of 139 OFFLINE   DanH1972

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Posted September 18 2014 - 08:44 PM

That was a very nice press conference and it was nice to get some information regarding what to expect upgrading to Atmos.

 

Transformers being the first movie out of the gate in Atmos will be nice IMHO.  But since I do not currently own titles like Gravity or Oblivion and since these will most likely be offered with Atmos mixes in the near future.  I will put these two titles off until the Blu-ray are released with a Dolby Atmos track and if they are held long enough for  4K blu-ray that is ok with me as well.  But Transformers will be the first Atmos based movie in my collection and I am hoping for a good Atmos catalog within 3-4 years.

 

Don't be too quick to buy T4 just for the Atmos mix.  If the retail disc is anything like the clip from the Dolby Atmos demo disc as used by Dolby at their booth... it's not very good at all.  Dolby's partners on the floor would not use T4 to demo their products... it was that uninspiring.  It just sounded like a big blob of jumbled audio with lots of booming bass.  Not really that great as far as 7.1 mixes go either.

 

This has no bearing on what Atmos, as a format, can actually sound like.  It really can do great things, but needs skilled 3D mixing prowess behind it.  The Oscar winning engineers who mixed Gravity know how to coax the most out of Dolby Atmos and IMHO should be hired for as many projects as possible, and at the very least teach a seminar on proper 3D mixing techniques.



#131 of 139 OFFLINE   andySu

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Posted September 19 2014 - 02:05 AM

Press Conference for Dolby Atmos hosted last week at CEDIA

 

Brett Crockett looked bit nervous with the final question and the guy, was asking some good questions should have dropped in few more. Greg P. Russell, mentioned before about reducing dynamics of the film mix on Transformers 3 on one of these vimeo in the past. I like it when the guy with stick, said "level with us" :lol: caught him out. Frankly, I don't watered down dynamics. (its been common for decades. its like adding DNR and EE I don't want it) If It was extremely loud I'd use ether Night Mode our outboard audio limiters/compressors as I don't want hearing loss. 

 

Well my question is. Why no up date of the stage channels form common 3 to 9 or more for better future proof? So I don't have to bloody well or anyone else sell theirs in less than 10 years after spending £899 to over £1 grand and won't even get 10 years use out of it. Also why no stereo discrete below surround. All this EQ thing is easy as long as the AVR has RCA outputs to support outboard pro gear.

Also each cinema playing same film never sounds or feels the same way twice as all the cinemas and homes come in different sizes. Still lowering down on the dynamics won't go down too well. I won't buy no more Transformers films T3 was just dreadful the Dolby surround-TrueHD 7.1 didn't sound realistic with performers it sounded like BBC Easterenders at 7pm around my friends on flat screen tv with 1" speakers. I'd rather play ICE STATION ZEBRA and have dialogue panning LCR or half pans in-between its like the performers are in my home and not just coming from the common centre all the time. The mix breaths and all I was hearing in the video was the same old story. Still GRAVITY dtsHDMA 5.1 with the dialouge panning with PLIIx switched in extendeds behind on the 4 surrounds with easy clearness that makes me turn around or look over my shoulder while keeping one eye on the screen.

This set up atmos overhead. Setting up easypeasy. Use pink noise and angle the speakers until you have good tonal highs mid and mid bass well mid bass will have a bit of omnidirectional tone and can't do much about that. It is what it is.
 
Well I have heard Dolby Stereo overhead surrounds at UCI 25 years ago with Dolby CP55 and SRA5 for SR when SR prints came in and the effect of hearing it still I can hear and remember the locations I was looking at as have nearly all the films on Laserdisc DVD DVD-RW HD-DVD or bluray and thou it was Dolby Stereo optical I can ether down miux it play it with the stereo surrounds which worked with dts when that was installed few years after I left.

Nearly 98% of the Dolby Atmos films I won't touch or buy. Only few I might buy again if cheap or I will wait for lowest price for Dolby TrueHD 7.1 GRAVITY if that ever happens if its only 5.1 then they can keep it. I'm not spending out on an AVR Atmos, this year or next year, maybe 2016 I'm really not as much as excited as I was hoping this whole thing was going to turn out at. Disappointed no 9 screen or below stereo surround and I don't want to listen to another 7.1 that has random sound effects. I know what the scene in the film should sound and feel like and in REAL LIFE we don't feel helicopters pressing on our bodies at the same distance seen in film flying around. I only saw two Real helicopters yesterday afternoon that I took pictures off, A sea-king and a Chinook. If you was standing close to one you would I no doubt feel the rotor blades moving air and feeling windy feeling. Inside one I'd guess there would be some vibration resonates going on. That is where in films I see a lot going wrong.

Earthquakes I doubt produce 120db airborne and making the auduaince DEAF! Otherwise wouldn't the cinema or home be falling down within a few seconds and then after its finished the home would be deemed unsafe to live in. Structural damage. The only thing a film can't do is wind blowing gently on me with around 60db. Not unless its sub playing at silly SPL 105 more db.  

I know all fore-well a film is a film.

We all know 3d is not doing good so lets try something else then? Well as sound listener and sucker for something better. Dolby labs, haven't delivered. Sorry guys got try better. And yes I do hear a lot of REAL WORLD sounds below me EVERY DAY! I can hear my own footsteps no less than 60" inches below me. "We hear overhead" every day really. RAIN or water doesn't often sound in thin air! It sounds when its landed on an OBJECT!

I even hear my cat as below surround every day for past 6 years! Why? Because he is 60" below my ear level.  

Atmos "life like"? Just another marketing poly. The more things change. The more they stay the same. if they where selling at £130.00 I might be interested.

 

I'm not duffing Dolby labs, I have plenty of their products. I feel there just jumping too fast.


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#132 of 139 OFFLINE   Dr Griffin

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Posted September 19 2014 - 08:45 AM

It's funny how as it started to get a little detailed and a little heated, they said - well, we're out of time - :lol:

Best not reveal too much boys, wouldn't want to bog down the poor bastards with too much information (or the limitations for the 99%ers on how many channels you can afford), or reveal how much it will truly cost you to install full range speakers all over your room! :laugh:

I kid, I kid, I am a big Dolby supporter, but I'm not rushing into it. In fact, the more I come to know about Atmos in the home, the farther away it gets until I actually install it.


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#133 of 139 OFFLINE   andySu

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Posted September 19 2014 - 09:47 PM

I guess other question is how does the atmos up-mixer work? What DSP-matrix trickery does it have to take a Dolby 424 matrix mix to create atmos? Sounds like PLIIx and PLIIz combined.



#134 of 139 OFFLINE   FoxyMulder

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Posted September 19 2014 - 11:19 PM

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I guess other question is how does the atmos up-mixer work? What DSP-matrix trickery does it have to take a Dolby 424 matrix mix to create atmos? 

 

There is some clever behind the scenes stuff going on.

 

What they don't tell you is they use trained squirrels to upmix everything, they wanted to use monkeys but found squirrels were quicker and ate less, this is why it costs so much, it's nuts i know but that's what they eat.


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     :Fun Movie Quotes:

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"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

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#135 of 139 OFFLINE   DanH1972

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Posted September 19 2014 - 11:43 PM

I guess other question is how does the atmos up-mixer work? What DSP-matrix trickery does it have to take a Dolby 424 matrix mix to create atmos? Sounds like PLIIx and PLIIz combined.

 

Dolby has stated they scrapped PL II and started over with what became dubbed as Dolby Surround and it was many years in development.  It is supposed to work with the Atmos speaker layout.



#136 of 139 OFFLINE   andySu

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Posted September 20 2014 - 12:04 AM

There is some clever behind the scenes stuff going on.

 

What they don't tell you is they use trained squirrels to upmix everything, they wanted to use monkeys but found squirrels were quicker and ate less, this is why it costs so much, it's nuts i know but that's what they eat.

Now your talking about the classic vintage British mission impossible squirrel.  :P That is one cleaver squirrel that had it all sussed out. 

 



#137 of 139 OFFLINE   FoxyMulder

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Posted September 20 2014 - 12:17 AM

Now your talking about the classic vintage British mission impossible squirrel.  

 

Tom Cruise tried to hire that squirrel for his sidekick in one of the Mission Impossible films, the agent for the squirrel played hardball, wouldn't budge, wanted too many special treats for his client, in the end Tom went cheap and hired Simon Pegg.


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

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#138 of 139 OFFLINE   andySu

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Posted September 20 2014 - 12:17 AM

Dolby has stated they scrapped PL II and started over with what became dubbed as Dolby Surround and it was many years in development.  It is supposed to work with the Atmos speaker layout.

Yes I did hear that but come on really its like PLII was to get most ether back into playing older films for fun no wrong in that expect, I just don't recall listening to The Empire Strikes Back that way at Gaumont screen, Wednesday 21st May 1980, for the afternoon show after school around 3:30pm.

 

You know you can still have other AVR connected to another AVR just as long as you use the RCA outputs to inputs to separate amplifier and other outboard pro gear.

 

I think also mentioned in the other video around the first few minutes, I think Scott Wilkinson was referring to a Dolby Surround pro-logic SDU4 Decoder and there was also the SDE4 Encoder sold around early 80's I still have home cinema magazine where the product appear in and cost at time was about £1.5 grand. Today they can be bought for as little as £100 or less. Got keep your eyes peeled for them.  

 

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#139 of 139 OFFLINE   Sam Posten

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Posted September 30 2014 - 09:14 AM

OK so at this point has anyone got everything?  Upgraded Receiver, 4 or more height speakers or bounce speakers and Transformers?  What time should I be there?


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