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More Dolby Atmos details - start saving up, guys!

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#21 of 63 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted July 12 2014 - 08:39 AM

Let's see. My main theatre will get 4 more speakers added.

Cost rundown.

BIC V830 Bought in 1991(I think) for $700.

The 62 center was $175 about a year later. Used some Altec towers as rear, cause at the time "equal power" and AC3 were not out yet.

Found some V820 on Fleabay in Cincinnati for $200(when Ebay was new). Made a decent afternoon trip.

Found another pair of 820 on EBay for $150 5 years ago.

Somewhere found the 62, probably paid $100.

So that is $1325 on speakers, where I had the bulk of the expenditure 23 years ago.

Man that killed me...

#22 of 63 OFFLINE   Dr Griffin

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Posted July 12 2014 - 10:09 AM

The thing that is holding up the move to 11, then later probably 13 speaker setup is my obsession with obtaining the Klipsch La Scala II for my fronts - a chunk of change.



#23 of 63 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted July 12 2014 - 10:13 AM

The thing that is holding up the move to 11, then later probably 13 speaker setup is my obsession with obtaining the Klipsch La Scala II for my fronts - a chunk of change.

 

13 La Scala...???

 

I'll bring the popcorn machine...(you'd need it. Microwaved bags of popcorn would be sacrilege)

 

 

And yes...I know you said "front channel"....



#24 of 63 OFFLINE   Dr Griffin

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Posted July 12 2014 - 10:17 AM

13 La Scala...???

 

I'll bring the popcorn machine...(you'd need it. Microwaved bags of popcorn would be sacrilege)

 

Baby steps - just front L & R... for now.



#25 of 63 OFFLINE   DaveF

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Posted July 12 2014 - 11:26 AM

Agree with Robert, I don't see how this is other than a niche for those who prefer quantity over quality; the estate-sale refurb enthusiasts; and the wealthy.

Writ small, I already made this decision in choosing a 5.1 setup over 7.1. Adding two more speakers for my set budget would have pushed me to reducing the quality of my mains.

For where I'm at now: I have a $3000 SVS MTS 5.1 setup, with tower front LR. This is high-end for most people (though nothing special for HTF and AVS enthusiasts). Surrounds are about $750/pair. To add 4 speakers (two ceiling and two front height), it's a $1500 upgrade. That's huge. And that's still just a 9.1 setup, which is passe even by DD standards, with 11.1 available.

How about 16 more speakers, and a second sub-woofer, to target some presumed medium Atmos setup (that would be a 21.2 setup). That''s $7000 upgrade, over 100% more than my base cost. Inconceivable. It's a $10,000 total speaker setup. Lunacy. (for me. again others spend that much on stereo speakers alone. WHich means they'd be in for a $100k Atmos system)

I don't get it. This requires, as Foxy and other suggest, a whole new line of Atmos speakers. They have to be cheap and high quality! Cheap to make it affordable to buy a dozen or more speakers. But also quality to match the high-quality mains people start with. And they should be small and light; installing a dozen pairs of 20-lb bookshelves would be a masssive pain. As noted, little two pound jobbers that can hang from dry-wall mounts is the goal, Is suppose.

Even wireless is inadquate. If they all need an 110V AC, it's a new nightmore of power strips and electrical wireing up and down walls and ceilings. Battery power, also no good.

These need to be the equivalent of my deck lighting: low-voltage speakers, wired in series, chained back to one receiver output for power and signal.

#26 of 63 OFFLINE   vidiot33

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Posted July 12 2014 - 11:35 AM

Maybe some enterprising designer will construct speakers that look like ceiling tiles- might work

#27 of 63 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted July 12 2014 - 11:46 AM

Agree with Robert, I don't see how this is other than a niche for those who prefer quantity over quality; the estate-sale refurb enthusiasts; and the wealthy.

Writ small, I already made this decision in choosing a 5.1 setup over 7.1. Adding two more speakers for my set budget would have pushed me to reducing the quality of my mains.

For where I'm at now: I have a $3000 SVS MTS 5.1 setup, with tower front LR. This is high-end for most people (though nothing special for HTF and AVS enthusiasts). Surrounds are about $750/pair. To add 4 speakers (two ceiling and two front height), it's a $1500 upgrade. That's huge. And that's still just a 9.1 setup, which is passe even by DD standards, with 11.1 available.

How about 16 more speakers, and a second sub-woofer, to target some presumed medium Atmos setup (that would be a 21.2 setup). That''s $7000 upgrade, over 100% more than my base cost. Inconceivable. It's a $10,000 total speaker setup. Lunacy. (for me. again others spend that much on stereo speakers alone. WHich means they'd be in for a $100k Atmos system)

I don't get it. This requires, as Foxy and other suggest, a whole new line of Atmos speakers. They have to be cheap and high quality! Cheap to make it affordable to buy a dozen or more speakers. But also quality to match the high-quality mains people start with. And they should be small and light; installing a dozen pairs of 20-lb bookshelves would be a masssive pain. As noted, little two pound jobbers that can hang from dry-wall mounts is the goal, Is suppose.

Even wireless is inadquate. If they all need an 110V AC, it's a new nightmore of power strips and electrical wireing up and down walls and ceilings. Battery power, also no good.

These need to be the equivalent of my deck lighting: low-voltage speakers, wired in series, chained back to one receiver output for power and signal.

 

This "a whole new line of Atmos speakers" is a flawed statement.

 

You are confusing two things...well, technically the two ways to do the same thing.

 

There is no such thing as "Atmos speakers".

 

What there is is "Atmos ENABLED speakers".

 

Like I said in the other thread...5.1 Atmos Enabled is still 7.1. The main left and right as well as height...are the same speaker. That is the "enabled".

 

Otherwise you buy 7/9/11/13 of whatever you want.



#28 of 63 OFFLINE   FoxyMulder

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Posted July 12 2014 - 11:52 AM

There is no such thing as "Atmos speakers".

 

I think he might be aware of this and it's just the wording, Atmos excites me but does it excite the poor neighbours, probably not.


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#29 of 63 OFFLINE   Dr Griffin

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Posted July 12 2014 - 03:17 PM

I think 11.1 or 13.1 could be made affordable eventually, but I see no need for the average home theater to go beyond that. There would not really be a need to have nearly as many channels as a commercial theater that is many times larger than an HT.



#30 of 63 OFFLINE   DaveF

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Posted July 12 2014 - 08:18 PM

This "a whole new line of Atmos speakers" is a flawed statement.
 
You are confusing two things...well, technically the two ways to do the same thing.
 
There is no such thing as "Atmos speakers".
 
What there is is "Atmos ENABLED speakers".
 
Like I said in the other thread...5.1 Atmos Enabled is still 7.1. The main left and right as well as height...are the same speaker. That is the "enabled".
 
Otherwise you buy 7/9/11/13 of whatever you want.


How so and why not?
For a speaker system that uses an order of magnitude more speakers than anything used the past 40 years to be more than a very high-end niche, the speakers need to be cheaper, lighter, and simpler wiring while acoustically matching adequately a (presumably) expensive core system. Or not. An Atmos system will cost $10k to get started. Or, it will be $1000 and be made of a suite of very low-end speakers.

And: what is "Atmos enabled"? How is a speaker "enabled" for Atmos?

#31 of 63 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted July 12 2014 - 09:05 PM

Jumping on two threads here...

 

Atmos Enabled is answered at the other one...

 

Once you remove the confusion of what makes a speaker "Atmos Enabled"...

 

You can buy whatever you want. You want 11 OSD 6" round in-wall...buy 11 of them.

 

Want 11 Magnepan? Buy 11 Magnepan and hang 4 from the ceiling.



#32 of 63 OFFLINE   Dr Griffin

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Posted July 13 2014 - 07:07 AM

Jumping on two threads here...

 

Atmos Enabled is answered at the other one...

 

Once you remove the confusion of what makes a speaker "Atmos Enabled"...

 

You can buy whatever you want. You want 11 OSD 6" round in-wall...buy 11 of them.

 

Want 11 Magnepan? Buy 11 Magnepan and hang 4 from the ceiling.

 

I'm beginning to like the idea of ribbon/electrostatic for the ceiling.



#33 of 63 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted July 13 2014 - 08:24 AM

I see Magnepan renaming the MMG-C/W as MMG-MP(multi-position).

Or God forbid...having to actually make the MP a "3rd option".

#34 of 63 OFFLINE   FoxyMulder

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Posted July 13 2014 - 08:35 AM

Maybe they need to introduce lightbulb LED based speakers, that would help cater for those who want light and ceiling speakers, it would be room friendly, i'm sure they could do it at reasonable prices, i already know they make thin wall speakers that can also have pictures in them, not cheap though.  


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#35 of 63 OFFLINE   Dr Griffin

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Posted July 13 2014 - 02:35 PM

Maybe they need to introduce lightbulb LED based speakers, that would help cater for those who want light and ceiling speakers, it would be room friendly, i'm sure they could do it at reasonable prices, i already know they make thin wall speakers that can also have pictures in them, not cheap though.  

 

They may even sound better :rolleyes: , remember those light cables from about 20 years ago?



#36 of 63 OFFLINE   FoxyMulder

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Posted July 13 2014 - 02:52 PM

They may even sound better :rolleyes: , remember those light cables from about 20 years ago?

 

I can't even remember last year.  :lol:


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#37 of 63 OFFLINE   Dr Griffin

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Posted July 13 2014 - 03:21 PM

I can't even remember last year.  :lol:

 

I know what you mean. Maybe someone else remembers this cable manufacturer, but they had a light source inside the cable that was, I guess, supposed to make an audible difference, maybe by the photons bouncing around in there for eternity!



#38 of 63 OFFLINE   andySu

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Posted July 13 2014 - 06:14 PM

I wonder about that too, i think it might be that speaker manufacturers start making some cheaper ceiling speakers, fairly lightweight and small in size so they can be screwed into ceiling joists, i'm thinking the speaker frequency response would be 80hz and upwards, you already see these on Amazon, i think timbre matched to the same brand would be ideal.

 

I'm also thinking 24 speakers is much nicer, built up over time, 35 even better, depends on room size and placement.

 

Maybe flat panel speakers will be made, you can already buy some like that, they could go onto ceilings and walls and maybe be less conspicious, i think Dolby Atmos is an exciting development for sound but it needs to be affordable.

No, no, no. Speakers can be any price within practical reasonable prices.

 

ebaY, has bundles to chose from at cheap low costs.

 

Many ways of designing the room with clusters of loudspeakers at low cost.

 

My room is small but its not impossible to go THE Fully Atmos Monty, with 64 or more. The more is mostly made up with the surrounds and most of those surrounds in a cinema have been there for years. They only stick in a few more of the same model further towards the screen and couple more towards the corners of the rear. Often the overhead would be of the same model to keep timber balance the same as close as possible. The ones on the rear wall are the same.

 

All the speakers then wired up with more amps! And up goes the cost as well!!! Normally the surrounds would have the wiring all individual before and wired back in the booth. So all they need do is undo it and re-wire over the next few days and test ir all out. (That's my guess that's what I'd do).

 

I'm happy with JBL control 1 for the surrounds for the size room and give satisfactory bass mid feel. I have two extra 12" bass mid filtered with a CP45 on its sub bass and with that active on film, gives a nice extra low end extension.

 

I could in fact easily redo the present overhead control 5 x4 attached to the ceiling and redo with control 1, up to at least x8 or more. Depends on planing and spacing them out. Same with side wall. I have plenty enough for back wall. x4 but was thinking of putting in x2 more? x2 for each side wall at present. 

 

I tried one formula by just eyeing my present surrounds and spacing between each on the side wall and come up with x8 per side wall and x8 per each left/right overhead x16. Back wall x6. Stage channels x3. Subs x4. 45 speakers.

 

I tried it again and used the tape measure.

 

73 speakers. I think the cost of total will be OVERKILL  :lol: not to mention speaker-cable and extra amps and EQ/delay/crossover control. Extremely expensive.

 

I think I'll keep it to 45.

 

But Atmos only flaw is. No below stereo surround? I have below surround set-up here. I need it now to be delivered discretely with Atmos. I think they need to go back and re-think Atmos.

 

Also the stage channels. They need to be ether updated with at least 9 screen at the minimum.

There should be a upper three-screen

Common middle three-screen   

And below bottom three-screen 

So all the above can match on screen images and be a bit exciting over what has been now practice for decades. It needs to evolve.

 

A lot of films I watch and see where performers are on the screen and thinking how much better it would sound if voices or Foley footsteps and sound effects were to come from new locations behind the screen would be, a must listening for me.  :P

 

Home would need smaller speakers for 9 screen bookshelf maybe, depends on the room size, height, width? If too small a height then smaller bookshelf models would be sited. Not HUGE cinema pa speakers otherwise its mixing in other brand speakers will sound dreadful with tonal characteristic when playing pink noise from a three of matched speakers to the other groups that are mismatched.

 

You got plan it. Not to extreme use common sense with large number of speakers as that is what Dolby Atmos, is trying to sell here. 

 

I've had more CB radios in the past Cobra 148 GTL-DX that had more channels than Atmos. 120 channels of low mid high CW/FM/AM/USB/LSB. Even one Snake with Low/Mid/High/Double High/Triple High that went partly into the Ham band. That's 200 channels.  :P


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#39 of 63 OFFLINE   Brian Dobbs

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Posted July 14 2014 - 04:39 AM

"How many overhead speakers do I need?

For the best Dolby Atmos experience, we recommend four overhead speakers for most homes. But you can get great sound with just two.
"

 

Good to know I'm covered.  I wired for six.



#40 of 63 OFFLINE   Dr Griffin

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Posted July 14 2014 - 07:09 AM

No, no, no. Speakers can be any price within practical reasonable prices.

 

ebaY, has bundles to chose from at cheap low costs.

 

Many ways of designing the room with clusters of loudspeakers at low cost.

 

My room is small but its not impossible to go THE Fully Atmos Monty, with 64 or more. The more is mostly made up with the surrounds and most of those surrounds in a cinema have been there for years. They only stick in a few more of the same model further towards the screen and couple more towards the corners of the rear. Often the overhead would be of the same model to keep timber balance the same as close as possible. The ones on the rear wall are the same.

 

All the speakers then wired up with more amps! And up goes the cost as well!!! Normally the surrounds would have the wiring all individual before and wired back in the booth. So all they need do is undo it and re-wire over the next few days and test ir all out. (That's my guess that's what I'd do).

 

I'm happy with JBL control 1 for the surrounds for the size room and give satisfactory bass mid feel. I have two extra 12" bass mid filtered with a CP45 on its sub bass and with that active on film, gives a nice extra low end extension.

 

I could in fact easily redo the present overhead control 5 x4 attached to the ceiling and redo with control 1, up to at least x8 or more. Depends on planing and spacing them out. Same with side wall. I have plenty enough for back wall. x4 but was thinking of putting in x2 more? x2 for each side wall at present. 

 

I tried one formula by just eyeing my present surrounds and spacing between each on the side wall and come up with x8 per side wall and x8 per each left/right overhead x16. Back wall x6. Stage channels x3. Subs x4. 45 speakers.

 

I tried it again and used the tape measure.

 

73 speakers. I think the cost of total will be OVERKILL  :lol: not to mention speaker-cable and extra amps and EQ/delay/crossover control. Extremely expensive.

 

I think I'll keep it to 45.

 

But Atmos only flaw is. No below stereo surround? I have below surround set-up here. I need it now to be delivered discretely with Atmos. I think they need to go back and re-think Atmos.

 

Also the stage channels. They need to be ether updated with at least 9 screen at the minimum.

There should be a upper three-screen

Common middle three-screen   

And below bottom three-screen 

So all the above can match on screen images and be a bit exciting over what has been now practice for decades. It needs to evolve.

 

A lot of films I watch and see where performers are on the screen and thinking how much better it would sound if voices or Foley footsteps and sound effects were to come from new locations behind the screen would be, a must listening for me.  :P

 

Home would need smaller speakers for 9 screen bookshelf maybe, depends on the room size, height, width? If too small a height then smaller bookshelf models would be sited. Not HUGE cinema pa speakers otherwise its mixing in other brand speakers will sound dreadful with tonal characteristic when playing pink noise from a three of matched speakers to the other groups that are mismatched.

 

You got plan it. Not to extreme use common sense with large number of speakers as that is what Dolby Atmos, is trying to sell here. 

 

I've had more CB radios in the past Cobra 148 GTL-DX that had more channels than Atmos. 120 channels of low mid high CW/FM/AM/USB/LSB. Even one Snake with Low/Mid/High/Double High/Triple High that went partly into the Ham band. That's 200 channels.  :P

 

Are you saying there should be 9 separate screen channels for more precise imaging - like cener top, center middle, center bottom, right middle etc.?







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