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Dipole or Bipole for my 7.1 setup?


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#21 of 41 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted February 17 2014 - 11:03 AM

 

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:'Merriweather Sans', sans-serif;background-color:rgb(242,242,242);]when you say the left speaker is connected to the right connection, which way are you facing?  I always thought that rear left meant left when facing the TV[/color]

 

 

 

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:'Merriweather Sans', sans-serif;background-color:rgb(242,242,242);]I always thought speaker placement L/R was from the listener's chair position.[/color]

 

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:'Merriweather Sans', sans-serif;background-color:rgb(242,242,242);]So, sitting down facing the display, left rear/surround is to your left and right rear/surround is to your right.[/color]


 

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#22 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 11:09 AM

I suspect it is.  I just wanted to clarify.  I'll have to look at my rear surrounds and see if they are configured that way, and if it ends up making an audible difference.  I'm sure the instructions explained this, but not guaranteeing I read them completely.

 

It's always nice to gain some understanding.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#23 of 41 OFFLINE   Gregg Loewen

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Posted February 17 2014 - 11:15 AM

ron photo.jpg

 

hope this clarify.


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#24 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 11:20 AM

Yes, it does.  Sorry to ask the obvious.  My understanding of surround setups beyond 5.1 is sketchy.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#25 of 41 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted February 17 2014 - 11:20 AM

Gregg,

 

No, actually, it only confuses me without in-person explanation.

 

Again...

 

All I am doing is switching the rear L and R speakers.

 

Wiring remains the same.  Even speaker threading remains consistent where

white-lined side of speaker cable goes into RED TERMINALS on speaker and

receiver.

 

Again -- all common wiring stays the same.  All I am doing is switching rear speakers.

 

Yes?

 

My understanding of surround setups beyond 5.1 is sketchy.

 

 

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:'Merriweather Sans', sans-serif;background-color:rgb(242,242,242);]John, you aren't the only one, brother.  This was a real head-turner for me.[/color]


 

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#26 of 41 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted February 17 2014 - 11:26 AM

Posted Imageron photo.jpg

hope this clarify.

That is better.

Like I said earlier...arrows on the speakers would help.

#27 of 41 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted February 17 2014 - 11:32 AM

There is a thought Ron. Get some of those dots from Office Depot. On the two rights, put the dot on the right back side. Two lefts on the left backvside.Mount "dots front". And "dots inside".Then when you move and they spend a year boxed away...you don't have to think about it again...

#28 of 41 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted February 17 2014 - 11:43 AM

Is that what all those arrows and + and - mean?I was looking at my speakers, thinking I had to have the back colored terminals (red and black) 

going in a certain direction where the red (+) on one speaker faced the red (+) on the other speaker.

 

Couldn't quite figure out what Gregg was doing in that diagram.  I am slow with that stuff.

 

That's good advice, Schan.

 

So, again, all I am doing is switching Left and Right rear speaker.  Not wiring.


 

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#29 of 41 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted February 17 2014 - 11:50 AM

That's good advice, Schan.So, again, all I am doing is switching Left and Right rear speaker. Not wiring.

Correct.

#30 of 41 OFFLINE   Gregg Loewen

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Posted February 17 2014 - 11:51 AM

 

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:'Merriweather Sans', sans-serif;background-color:rgb(242,242,242);]So, again, all I am doing is switching Left and Right rear speaker.  Not wiring.[/color]

 

correct. 


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#31 of 41 OFFLINE   Gregg Loewen

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Posted February 17 2014 - 11:53 AM

FWIW, most people are not aware that surround speakers are marked left and right. This is done to ensure that + fire towards each other and - also fire towards each other. This ensures correct phasing. 


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#32 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 12:16 PM

Clearly I had forgotten that surround speakers are marked left and right.  My side surrounds haven't moved from their mounts in nearly 20 years.  Once Gregg mentioned was only when I recalled they are marked left and right.  I do remember my (much newer) rear surrounds have dual dip switches which makes them electronically changeable between left and right.  I just don't recall if they mention that being reversed between side and rear location.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#33 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 12:18 PM

FWIW, most people are not aware that surround speakers are marked left and right. This is done to ensure that + fire towards each other and - also fire towards each other. This ensures correct phasing. 

Now, that makes sense why you reverse them for rears.  You want the + toward the center/listener and - to the sides.  I am guessing that mounted on the sides the + is toward the front.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#34 of 41 OFFLINE   Gregg Loewen

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Posted February 17 2014 - 12:21 PM

 

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:'Merriweather Sans', sans-serif;background-color:rgb(242,242,242);]You want the + toward the center/listener and - to the sides.[/color]

 

Not really. you want positives firing towards positives and negatives firing towards negatives. 

 

You could have a negatively phased system where the mains are negative phase. 


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Gregg's DVDs updated...sometimes
Lion Audio Video Consultants usually current


#35 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 12:35 PM

I shouldn't try to respond to this stuff between tasks at work.  I need to dedicate more time to visualizing what is going on.

 

So, Thanks Gregg.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#36 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 12:59 PM

Is the goal that each facing side of adjacent speakers are in phase with each other?  Ex: Front R and forward facing R side surround, both +; rear facing side of R side surround and outside facing R rear surround, both -; inside facing of both rears + and so on...?  Basically creating zones with in phase drivers projecting into it from both sides, alternating phase with each zone?

 

Sorry, but I do much better once I understand the "Why", then the "How" falls into place for me.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#37 of 41 OFFLINE   Gregg Loewen

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Posted February 17 2014 - 01:13 PM

yes!!

(now get back to work).


The Sonodome - circa 2001
The Newest Sonotube - circa 2001
Gregg's DVDs updated...sometimes
Lion Audio Video Consultants usually current


#38 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 01:26 PM

LOL!

 

Thanks.  I'm so glad to understand now.

 

Good thing I'm the boss and it's a mail holiday, so I can get done late, since not much is going anywhere anyway.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#39 of 41 OFFLINE   JohnRice

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Posted February 17 2014 - 08:12 PM

Well, this has been educational.  In my defense, I always tell people that 2 channel music is by far my #1 priority in my good system.  I didn't know the nuances of dipole surround speakers.

 

So, thanks to Ron for asking the questions and Gregg for answering, and most of all, explaining the answers.

 

I first added side dipole surrounds (Polk LS F/X) 19-20 years ago.  Switchable di/bipole speakers were a fairly new thing and I don't think many people really understood them.  It would have been fine, except the LS F/X can be mounted upside down if needed, which is what I did.  They've been like that ever since.  Problem is, the left and right speakers need to be swapped when you do that and run them dipole.  Never occurred to me until today.  Now that's fixed.

 

A few years ago I expanded to 7.1 and added Emotiva ERD-1s in the back.  They aren't manufactured as left or right, but can be electronically set as bipole, inverted bipole, left dipole or right dipole.  Of course, I tried them as dipole with the left set as left and right set as right.  It didn't sound good, so I settled for setting both to bipole.  Now, with the flip of a few switches, that's fixed.  The left one is set as right dipole and the right is set as left dipole.

 

Yeah, it sounds better.  Distinct placement of surround sounds actually exists, where it didn't used to all that much.  I need to re-equalize the surrounds and recalibrate them.  I did a quick adjustment with the internal level generator on my Sherbourn PT-7030 and an SPL meter, and some quick EQ adjustments by ear.  I don't like auto calibration.  There's no point in telling me I'm wrong.  It's just the way I like it.

 

So, thanks again.


The Hybrid System

The Music Part: Emotiva XSP-1, Thiel CS 3.6, Emotiva XPA-2, Marantz SA8004, Emotiva ERC-3, SVS PB-12 Plus 2

The Surround Part: Sherbourn PT-7030, Thiel SCS3, Emotiva XPA-5, Polk & Emotiva Surrounds.


#40 of 41 OFFLINE   Dougofthenorth

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Posted February 22 2014 - 07:43 AM

Very interesting & informative discussion! Thanks

 

Instead of opening a new topic & I think this is on topic...

 

I am replacing my Boston VRMC & VRMX Side Surrounds, Rear Centers & 4 Effect/presence speakers, with Focal speaker matches, as they are now clearing out the wood grained speaker options.

I also wanted to match the tweeters & woofers with my Main L&R & Center.

I have got 6 of them so far & have yet to get the Focal Side Surrounds

 

The addition I hopefully will be adding on to the house this spring.

It will have the option of a dedicated HT room up to 22" long & ~19" up to a 10'+ ceiling.

(Done proper HT odd dimensions & material specs)

 

Since the new room will allow walking room around the sides of the seating area

Should I use a Mono-pole as opposed to a Di-pole, as Focal only makes Bi-polar side surround models that match my current speakers' tweeters & woofers - tonality as well . 

 

Comments, suggestions?


Regards,

 

Doug

 

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