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WKRP...Complete Series Coming Soon! (See Post #109)


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#1 of 552 OFFLINE   Frank Soyke

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Posted January 12 2014 - 09:14 PM

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I just finished watching the show on Antenna TV and I got angry all over again at what has happened with a possible DVD release of it. I hadn't seen it for awhile and I forgot what a great show it is. I remember watching it first run from the pilot on. Pardon the childish sounding diatribe, but I'm way tired of this music rights preventing release crap. I release everything is a business, but things have gotten ridiculous. Felix Unger hums a few bars of a song nobody even remembers and it has to be replaced due to rights problems. Are you freakin kidding me? Further Maude releases are unreleased due to music rights. What?  Somebody is overcharging Sony for a tiny handful of songs heard during the entire run. Sunset Strip and Hawaiian Eye are held up cause some moron wants too much money for a bunch of nightclub covers of standards anyone under 70 doesn't even remember. I'm truly tired of it. We classic TV fans pay the price because owners to the rights of obsolete archiaic music are so greedy. That's just flat not right.

 

Rant complete...


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#2 of 552 OFFLINE   Frank Soyke

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Posted January 12 2014 - 09:29 PM

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A good example of how ridiculous these rights (music and otherwise) issues have gotten is Adventures In Paradise. Reportedly the Michener estate is asking too much money for the rights. Do these people have such inflated egos that they really think a distributor is going to pay them a gigantic amount of money for a show 95 percent of the public doesn't even remember let alone care about? Other than us, the niche market, who would buy it enough to garner a profit for them? A distributor would be completely stupid to pay an inflated price for a show like that. So instead of charging a reasonable price for the rights and taking the money and run, Micheners heirs want to play hardball and get nothing for the show. Stupidity. End result - We never get a chance to see the show again.


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#3 of 552 OFFLINE   MatthewA

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Posted January 12 2014 - 10:01 PM

All I can say about the treatment of this show is:

 

BOOGER!


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Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#4 of 552 OFFLINE   younger1968

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Posted January 13 2014 - 04:16 AM

Yes, It is sad that WKRP has had issues with music. Instead of the music producers/singers working together to get the show out they have allow politics to dictate! This show could do the music business very good, especially keeping the classic music going with people!



#5 of 552 OFFLINE   David Rain

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Posted January 13 2014 - 07:03 AM

Dismissing it as "crap" does not change the fact that music rights are, and will continue to be, an issue. You can't expect anyone to simply give away their property. It's called business.

 

BTW, the syndicated episodes of WKRP have also been edited and had the music changed. You're not seeing the original versions by any stretch of the imagination. You likely never will again.


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#6 of 552 OFFLINE   Frank Soyke

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Posted January 13 2014 - 09:30 AM

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Dismissing it as "crap" does not change the fact that music rights are, and will continue to be, an issue. You can't expect anyone to simply give away their property. It's called business.

 

BTW, the syndicated episodes of WKRP have also been edited and had the music changed. You're not seeing the original versions by any stretch of the imagination. You likely never will again.

You are 100% correct that it is a business, and while I don't really appreciate you talking down to me like an ignorant child who doesn't understand the Capitalist system, I already acknowledged your point in the original post. I never implied anyone should give their property away. What I'm complaining about is not the fact of making money, it's how much money people want to charge.

As an example, I sold collectibles online for years. When setting an asking price, I had to consider not only what I thought was a fair price to garner a decent profit, but also demand. Real basic economics, If I sent the price too high and demand was not in line with that. it didn't sell. So instead of getting 50-70 percent of what I wanted, I got nothing. That was my point about the rights holders of some of this music and the like. They want to set exhorbitant prices for music and shows that have nowhere near the demand to justify those prices and the distributors know that, so instead of getting a little less than their inflated ideas of what their material is worth, the rights holders get nothing. That, my friend is very stupid on their part. As an example I stated previously, when Michener's heirs get nothing for Adventures in Paradise because they are diluted enough to think a distributor is going to pay them that much for a long forgotten show with no marketable star, that is not business, but pure stupidity and greed. That is the "crap" of which I speak.


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#7 of 552 OFFLINE   Ron1973

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Posted January 13 2014 - 10:33 AM

I see both sides of the issue but I tend to agree with Frank on this. 

 

You are 100% correct that it is a business, and while I don't really appreciate you talking down to me like an ignorant child who doesn't understand the Capitalist system, I already acknowledged your point in the original post. I never implied anyone should give their property away. What I'm complaining about is not the fact of making money, it's how much money people want to charge.

As an example, I sold collectibles online for years. When setting an asking price, I had to consider not only what I thought was a fair price to garner a decent profit, but also demand. Real basic economics, If I sent the price too high and demand was not in line with that. it didn't sell. So instead of getting 50-70 percent of what I wanted, I got nothing. That was my point about the rights holders of some of this music and the like. They want to set exhorbitant prices for music and shows that have nowhere near the demand to justify those prices and the distributors know that, so instead of getting a little less than their inflated ideas of what their material is worth, the rights holders get nothing. That, my friend is very stupid on their part. As an example I stated previously, when Michener's heirs get nothing for Adventures in Paradise because they are diluted enough to think a distributor is going to pay them that much for a long forgotten show with no marketable star, that is not business, but pure stupidity and greed. That is the "crap" of which I speak.

I'm a capitalist at heart but I agree with Frank here. I don't begrudge a company making whatever they can make. However, something's wrong when you can't see a show released because someone is holding out to break the bank. 

 

What are classic TV fans to do? As someone else pointed out, syndicated versions are going to be butchered, too. Even if there aren't music replacements, you're still getting chopped up versions to allow for more commercial time. Again, greed.

 

I'll have to lighten up my argument against CBS HE/Paramount since they did give us S4 of The Beverly Hillbillies. However, in the years we waited between S3 and S4, bootleggers galore are out there hawking the show in "complete sets" which in reality were obviously taped/recorded from broadcasts. Some of them were selling on a particular auction site and being billed as public domain! Yeah, the first 1 1/2 seasons are PD but not the whole series. As I pointed out on their FB page (and wound up banned) that's money they could be making. Instead, they chose nothing over something all those years.

 

I don't condone buying bootleg copies if it's available officially. On the other hand, when companies try to milk something for the very last 1¢ they can get out of it, what do they think is going to happen? People want to see a show and they'll buy from the first source they see without questioning the legitimacy of it.


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#8 of 552 OFFLINE   smithbrad

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Posted January 13 2014 - 11:22 AM

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I know nothing about the music industry to say what is a reasonable or not reasonable when it comes to paying for the right of use. I just know that as owners they have the right to charge whatever they like.

 

As far as some comments regarding this topic where the feeling is that something is better than nothing, I think there is another side to this that I haven't seen mentioned. And that is that DVD's aren't the only use for this music.  My guess is that the charge for a particular song is the same regardless of how it is going to be used. Whether that be in a Super Bowl ad costing millions of dollars or a DVD release of an obscure title. Typically, when a product price is lowered for special cases it devalues the product.  Which is why sometimes an overstocked item might get destroyed by a producer rather than allowing it to be dumped and sold at rock bottom prices (e.g. those DVD sets that ended up at Big Lots when they were suppose to be destroyed).

 

So in many of these cases it might just be smart business to keep the price at a higher standard to reap the benefits of what would be consider higher profit ventures, and risk losing out on some minor benefits gained in lesser DVD releases even if this doesn't sit well with classic TV collectors.  Just a thought.


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#9 of 552 OFFLINE   derosa

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Posted January 13 2014 - 11:27 AM

On the other hand, when companies try to milk something for the very last 1¢ they can get out of it, what do they think is going to happen? 

 

A point I think gets lost in the discussion over the price, is that the rights holders gets

nothing out of their asset if they can't make a deal to license the material.  

That's not good capitalism either.   Often this issue of the rights owners "holding out" for

more money isn't true, the reason for no releases is the lack of a buyer  to make an offer

in the first place, not the refusal of the owner to make a deal.

 

PS - a complete and original wkrp set would be number one on my dream list.



#10 of 552 OFFLINE   MattPriceTime

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Posted January 13 2014 - 11:33 AM

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It's a problem, but the fan is essentially stuck in the middle because there is quite honestly nothing they have in the matter. The owners of the music have the right to charge what they want, the show owners have the right to want to pursue something like that as little or as much as they want. And there you go to the golden rule.

 

Does it suck certain shows are in this limbo, of course. But there's nothing to do but wait and hope both sides eventually realize getting nothing is not the best course. But at the moment, complaining about it doesn't really do anything but make the complainer more miserable.


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#11 of 552 OFFLINE   mrz7

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Posted January 13 2014 - 12:28 PM

Unfortunately, the problem with "WKRP" and music rights is the same reason why "The Drew Carey Show" has not released anymore seasons on DVD (only Season 1 has been released).  Though I loved watching the musical numbers Drew did on the show, my main reason for watching the show was for the comedy.

 

I studied the music business back in college (many moons ago). It has drastically changed since then.  Today's music business primary source of income is from "music licensing".  Music CD's are becoming extinct. Itunes and other internet sources that download music make some money for the labels.....but their main source of income now is "Music Licensing".  So naturally the labels (and the artist themselves, especially those who write their own songs) are asking for big bucks.  However, I really think it depends on "who" the artist and labels are.  Madonna negotiated a contract to use her songs with "Glee" (for one of the episodes dedicated to Madonna).  Yes, "Glee" a newer show, but Madonna and her label agreed on a negotiable price to use her music mainly due to getting more exposure (Madonna admitted so herself.....even though I really don't think she has to worry about exposure.....but a good reason why her career has had longevity). End result: it was A win win scenario for everyone (fans of "Glee", Madonna and her Label, and the studios who released the show on DVD).

 

Many other artists, such as the ones used in "WKRP" and "The Drew Carey Show" are from more old school musicians and performers, who probably felt slided when the internet downloading music was first started and people were downloading their music for free (illegally).  So a part of this I think is the reason the labels and their artists are asking for a substantial amount to use their songs on DVD releases (The other part of it is that many of the older shows did not include music rights with home video releases, at least for DVDs/Blu-Ray).  End result: Greed is NOT GOOD......because nobody has NOTHING (fans don't have their favorite show on DVD, Musicians and Label are not getting anything because they are asking too much for their songs, and the Home Video Studio is not getting anything for the DVD release).

 

Bottom line:  Frank was correct in his observation......You give a little, you get a little.  If you get too greedy, you get NOTHING.      



#12 of 552 OFFLINE   Guy Foulard

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Posted January 13 2014 - 01:09 PM

I think about 99% of the issue is whether music rights to DVD releases were negotiated at the same time as broadcast rights.  Presumably they always are with post-DVD shows like Glee, but they never were with a show as old as WKRP.  It's a seller's market once the music is integrated into the show.  What we're not seeing with newer shows is the music that was rejected before filming, because the rights holders wouldn't sell at the right price.



#13 of 552 OFFLINE   Frank Soyke

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Posted January 13 2014 - 01:34 PM

I guess even though my main gripe was originally about WKRP, I can kind of understand why the rights holders would be asking large sums of money for that and shows like Wonder Years or Drew Carey, etc. The music used were of fairly recent vintage and still played frequently on many classic rock stations so there is quite a bit of name recognition with them and rights holders feel like they have a reason to hold distributors hostage till they get what they want.

My issue is more with the music in some of those older, less marketable shows. I mean c'mon, does Connie Stevens singing standards from the 40's and early 50's really merit what seemingly the rights holders are demanding for a show with very limited marketability? Would they rather end up earning nothing from the show than making a fair deal? That's just one example to prove why I'm saying but you get the point.


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#14 of 552 OFFLINE   MatthewA

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Posted January 13 2014 - 01:43 PM

In 1978, home video was in its infancy, and nobody believed people would want to own whole runs of a sitcom so they could watch it over and over on their own time. Of course they wouldn't have considered something like this when clearing the rights. Of course, if they had had any foresight, they would have spent a little extra to clear it in perpetuity.

 

Publishers have a right to expect compensation for their work, but the prices they charge for licensing are ridiculous. No song ever written is worth what they are asking. Not one. Not Beethoven, Bach, Burt Bacharach, The Beatles, or even the Backstreet Boys. And personal feelings come into play all the time. IIRC, WKRP had Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven" originally, but now you can't license that song at any price. Even when the rights holders agree, they can charge a fortune for personal reasons. Because of the explicit content of Pink Flamingos, John Waters ended up paying more money to use "Tomorrow" from Annie in his film Serial Mom than his earlier films even cost to begin with! I guess the composer and lyricist didn't want the signature song from their family-friendly musical to be associated with a man who started his career with a fat drag queen doing things I won't reiterate here! ;) And that was 20 years ago!

 

They are pricing themselves out of the market and getting nothing. That is bad business practice in any industry.


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Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#15 of 552 OFFLINE   Ron1973

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Posted January 13 2014 - 01:48 PM

I guess even though my main gripe was originally about WKRP, I can kind of understand why the rights holders would be asking large sums of money for that and shows like Wonder Years or Drew Carey, etc. The music used were of fairly recent vintage and still played frequently on many classic rock stations so there is quite a bit of name recognition with them and rights holders feel like they have a reason to hold distributors hostage till they get what they want.

My issue is more with the music in some of those older, less marketable shows. I mean c'mon, does Connie Stevens singing standards from the 40's and early 50's really merit what seemingly the rights holders are demanding for a show with very limited marketability? Would they rather end up earning nothing from the show than making a fair deal? That's just one example to prove why I'm saying but you get the point.

Frank, yeah, it does and it does stink. I uploaded to YouTube an alternate take of a Hank Williams, Sr. song, a version never released to CD or tape. I had UMG and YouTube both breathing down my back threatening possible legal action and suspension of my account! Okay, how am I costing you money when you refuse to release it? Sure, I understand copyright law and I understand it's their right to ask me to remove it.

 

I uploaded today a radio show of Hank Williams, again, nothing that's on CD and even to a completist like me, I hadn't heard it myself until last year when a friend gave it to me. Within minutes of uploading it, here's UMG saying they've identified a song of theirs! At least this time they're apparently allowing it to stay. I worded it in the description that I wasn't intending to infringe and hopefully if enough people heard the show, they'd start asking UMG to release it to CD/mp3 download. 

 

I feel the same about music rights on home video. Okay, no one is asking you to do it for free! A fair and honest profit? Sure! That "little less" you take to get it licensed might actually mean MORE people are hearing the song again after its release on a DVD/Blu release. For instance, I listen quite frequently to various channels on Sonic Tap on Directv. Many, many times I've heard some song and went to Amazon to download it or purchase the CD.  Why couldn't home video be the same?

 

I'm worried as to how CBS/Paramount is going to handle later releases of The Beverly Hillbillies. Roy Clark guested on several episodes as did Pat Boone and one of the Petticoat Junction crossovers had Mike Minor singing also and there was also a cast recording of The Wreck of the Old '97. I hope like heck they don't butcher those up!


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#16 of 552 OFFLINE   MatthewA

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Posted January 13 2014 - 03:59 PM

Ron, I know how you feel.

 

The industry still doesn't recognize the difference between stealing physical property and re-posting someone else's intellectual property. With the latter, the original copy still exists and the creators are not deprived of it. But I do not post some of my rare findings on YT because I risk losing my account, too. And these are things that aren't on DVD. But some of them belong to people or companies with whom I'd rather not have to do legal battle.

 

YouTube exposure does help music sales. At least it does for me; I use it to find new songs I like, and then I buy them on iTunes or on CD if I like them enough to spend money on them. Unfortunately, some of the songs aren't on CD or iTunes either.


Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I am going to boycott The Walt Disney Company until then.


#17 of 552 OFFLINE   JMFabianoRPL

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Posted January 13 2014 - 04:24 PM

Kind of off-topic, but which Americanization of Ivan has Antenna shown? 

 

re: Madonna...I wish she was as generous to Jennifer Saunders as she was to Glee (they had to cut an Ab Fab episode because Edina quotes "Like a Prayer") 


CBS = Constantly Butchering Shows.


#18 of 552 OFFLINE   JoeDoakes

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Posted January 13 2014 - 05:37 PM

Ron, I know how you feel.

 

The industry still doesn't recognize the difference between stealing physical property and re-posting someone else's intellectual property. With the latter, the original copy still exists and the creators are not deprived of it. But I do not post some of my rare findings on YT because I risk losing my account, too. And these are things that aren't on DVD. But some of them belong to people or companies with whom I'd rather not have to do legal battle.

 

YouTube exposure does help music sales. At least it does for me; I use it to find new songs I like, and then I buy them on iTunes or on CD if I like them enough to spend money on them. Unfortunately, some of the songs aren't on CD or iTunes either.

Under law, one of the rights copyright holders possess is the right to make copies.  When one uploads content onto a server, one is making a copy, and if done without permission, is a violation of copyright law.  There are some exceptions such as making copies for personal use, but making a copy to share with 1000s of strangers is not one of them.  The real issue in music licensing seems less to do with the basics of copyright than with some peculiarities of U.S. law.  It generally seems much less onerous to release films and television shows with music under copyright as well as films based on preexisting source material in foreign countries than it is in the United States.


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#19 of 552 OFFLINE   HenryDuBrow

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Posted January 13 2014 - 05:55 PM

The DVD release is a mess, only the interviews/extras are worth owning. Very sad situation for this, I think best sitcom ever. Back in the late 80s, a Scandinavian satellite channel called TV3 showed at least the first season uncut and maybe S2, I remember taping them. Goofy question/suggestion, what would the price tag of a limited uncut MOD DVD release be from Fox (ala Warner's archive). -Maybe hardcore fans would love to pay it...  

 

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#20 of 552 OFFLINE   Hasslein

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Posted January 13 2014 - 06:23 PM

Even though WKRP was shot on videotape, what would stop Fox from releasing the show in Europe where music copyright laws are different, on region free BDs & make us all happy to import?






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