Improved dialogue in movies (1 Viewer)

dsigmon · Dec 18, 2013

I need some experienced advice.

My wife & I both have the same hearing problem. It's called "discrimination"
When in a crowd of people, at a game, at a party, etc we have a difficult time hearing the person standing next to us due to background sounds & noise. We can hear their voice but can't understand what they are saying.

Needless to say when watching a movie, we hear the explosions, special effects, etc, but can't discern the voices or dialogue of the actors. We hear them talking but can't understand what they are saying. It is very frustrating. I know this is not all me because in some movies the special effects seem to drown out the dialogue.

We want to improve or movie watching experience.

I have an old all in one stereo system that has 2 bookshelf speakers, a center channel speaker, and 2 surround speakers. It has limited inputs that allowed hookup of a dvd player to get a home theater experience. It has very limited adjustment between the speakers to balance them.

MY OBJECTIVE: is to upgrade my equipment & hopefully improve the dialogue in movies.

MY QUESTION: Will a 3.1 channel system significantly improve the dialogue in movies?

I'm not really interested in the surround speakers.

schan1269 · Dec 18, 2013

Buy an AVR with dialog enhancements(essentially anything $400+),

Buy three identical speakers(MTM arrangement causes issues...you can Google it),

How much do you wish to spend?

Something along this line would work wonders...
http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V575-7-2-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B00B981F4M/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1387406802&sr=1-1&keywords=Yamaha+rx0v575 (picked it over the 475 because it has "Direct". That bypasses the DSP. So, if you are watching something...and are having problems hearing it, switch it to Direct...and you'll know if it is just the way it was mixed)

http://www.amazon.com/Definitive-Technology-ProMonitor-Bookshelf-Speaker/dp/B000TD6QLK/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1387407034&sr=1-3&keywords=bookshelf+speaker+single (one of the few you can buy an odd number of)

dsigmon · Dec 18, 2013

Hi Sam Thanks for the quick reply

I know next to nothing about audio equipment & terminology.

I've never owned a AVR or stereo receiver-How would I know if the AVR has dialog enhancements? Is this the direct mode you refer to?

I'm trying not to spend too much right now. Just built a HTPC & have to wait awhile before getting the audio portion upgraded. Doing all the research now.

schan1269 · Dec 18, 2013

The Dialog Enhancements are in the owners manuals. (usually some form of "trim" or sharing output with the front channel)

Direct is a sound mode, totally indifferent to the any Dialog Enhancement.

How much is "not much"?

Without an answer there...can't look for anything. The speakers themselves will make the biggest improvement.

Type A · Dec 18, 2013

Welcome to the forum William

Better equipment will help but it will only take you so far. Often times acoustic reflections from poorly placed speakers combined with a non-treated room will affect dialog clarity in a big way. The more sound reflection potential you have between yourself and the speaker (and throughout the room) the more times you will hear the same sound. The tightest and clearest sound you can create is direct sound with no reflections. So, take a look around your room and ask yourself these questions...

How acoustically bright is this room? Lots of hard surfaces? Hardwood floors? Large windows? Big coffee table right in front of the seating? Speakers pushed back into a cabinet rather than dressed-out to the front edge?

Movie sound tracks are notorious for being mixed too hot, meaning effects drowning out dialog is a common complaint, it still happens even with the best designed systems. However there are things you can do to make the best out of a bad situation and it starts with considering the principals of sound propagation. Hardware, like Sam suggested, should be your second effort. Since you and the wife are especially susceptible youll likely need to experiment with dialog enhancement combined with acoustic principals to make it tolerable. A last resort would be headphones. Headphones can represent some of the finest performance in acoustic reproduction on the planet, and the highest value to performance ratio possible, but obviously wearing a headset is a pretty big drawback. However the ability to drop down to two small drivers on your head, and completely remove any of the nasty acoustic effects your environment puts on what you hear, makes it the solution of choice for those that can tolerate the drawback.

dsigmon · Dec 18, 2013

LOL TY. You said "How acoustically bright is this room? Lots of hard surfaces? Hardwood floors? Large windows? Big coffee table right in front of the seating? Speakers pushed back into a cabinet rather than dressed-out to the front edge?"

Do you have a spy cam in my living room? I guess this must be a common problem.

Not sure if the wife will be agreeable to changing the " acoustic principals" but I never thought about headphones, may explore this.

dsigmon · Dec 18, 2013

I was already looking at the Yamaha RVx 375 which is the 575's little brother. I doesn't appear to have direct mode.

You mentioned trim mode to share output with the front channel. Do not all AVR let you balance output between the speakers?

I thought the center channel carried most of the voice signal. Is there not a way to boost volume from it to improve dialoge?

Forgot to address budget amount. Due to my hearing issues, I'm definitely not a audiophile. I really probably couldn't tell a tremendous difference between A $50.00 speaker & a $1000.00 speaker. Everything I;m looking at would be in the budget category.

I pick up on things pretty quickly. I'm not so much interested in brands & models of equipment as I am the technology & specific designs or features that will help improve my hearing experience. Now that you are filling me in & I get a better understanding of what I need, I can shop for specific components later that match my budget.

schan1269 · Dec 18, 2013

My 40x40 room has 1 rug in it that barely covers the area directly in front of the TV seating.(use a rough area of 9x14 to view in the room)

I have book cases, swords and washboards hanging on the wall, a hutch, treadmill, rowing machine as well.

I have no issues with dialog. But my center speaker isn't some wimpy speaker.

BIC V62CLRS from the 90s.

My main theatre has carpeted lower walls(about 2 feet up), paneling over waferboard(acoustic material) is the rest of the walls.

schan1269 · Dec 18, 2013

dsigmon said:
I was already looking at the Yamaha RVx 375 which is the 575's little brother. I doesn't appear to have direct mode.
Which is why I recommend the 575. Onkyo would be less money...The NR616 is only $320 on Amazon

You mentioned trim mode to share output with the front channel. Do not all AVR let you balance output between the speakers?
Yamaha has "Virtual Dialog Lift"(if you don't use actual Presence speakers). It pulls the audio inline with the center of the TV, provided your left and right speakers are even with the TV itself. Onkyo has similar features.

I thought the center channel carried most of the voice signal. Is there not a way to boost volume from it to improve dialoge?
It does. We don't know what you are using as a center speaker. But I pretty much guarantee the Def Tech 800 would be a monumental improvement.

zoetmb · Dec 18, 2013

I think a three-channel system would be ideal for you. You don't necessarily want the speakers matched. Since most dialogue emanates from the center channel, you want the center channel to be brighter and crisper than the left and right channels which should improve dialog intelligibility.

You should look for a receiver that has a smartphone app to control it. Most of those apps permit you to change the relationship between the center speaker and the sides simply by tilting the smartphone. This way, you could increase the level to the center speaker.

Without the app, when you calibrate the receiver (they almost all have some kind of calibration processing, usually either Odyssey or MCACC), after the calibration, you can manually adjust the center channel to be louder, but then it will always be louder. Most receiver have multiple memories, so you do have the option of doing one calibration where it's what the receiver "thinks" is right and one where you override and increase the center channel level.

As an alternative, you can simply turn on subtitles or closed captions on most movies.

Frankly, while it's common to lose discrimination in noisy places as you get older, if you and your wife can't hear dialog in movies (aside from the most frantic battle scenes), it would seem to me that you have substantial hearing loss that you might want to get checked out (unless your current system is incredibly bad). I'm in my 60s and can no longer hear much of anything over 13KHz (kids can hear to 20KHz) and I'm probably down about 4-6db at 10KHz, but I can still understand dialog except in the most poorly mixed movies.

I suggest you go to a showroom and listen to a system to see if the dialog intelligibility is better than in your home environment. I suppose it's possible that in your current system, the tweeters are burned out, in which case, it would be very hard to obtain clear dialogue.

Jeffery_H · Dec 19, 2013

The advice as a whole from others is not going to help you much. That is because I am assuming you are both older and/or suffer some form of hearing loss. What you are describing sounds exactly like high frequency hearing loss which is defined by the inability to seperate out voices among many and background noise. You will notice background noise in perticular while in a crowded room eating, at a movie theater, etc. is a problem for you.

If this is true, nothing the posts here are describing will help. The reason I know is a family member of mine has the exact same hearing problems and they miss at least 50% or more of all TV and movie dialog. Truning on subtitles while watching a movie at home or CC helps. First, what you really need is to see an actual Doctor that is an Audiologist. They will be able to custom make hearing aids specifically tailered to your own hearing loss spectrum.

The other good solution for you both is to buy a "sound bar" for your flat screen TV. There is one good brand that does just what you seek and I know because it helped my family member that has hearing loss. It's called the ZVox model 555 or 580 soundbar. It sits under your flat screen and is simple to setup. What's nice about this brand and models is they have specifically done some work for those that are hard hearing. It has gotton great reviews from others such as Amazon, Crutchfield, etc. all saying how much it helped improve hearing dialog clearly. The ZVox uses DE or Dialog Enhancement mode to simulate more of what a hearing aid does. You can find more about them by doing a simple Google search or their company web site.

Hope this helps some, good luck.

FoxyMulder · Dec 19, 2013

You might think me crazy for mentioning this but ear wax can be a real problem as we get older, i had a buildup in my ears affecting my hearing, i bought the syringe below and some good ear wax drops, it's important to use the ear wax drops first for several days and then follow the instructions for the syringe, don't apply too much pressure when using the syringe, it has instructions for use, i found i needed to do it about twenty five times each ear, a huge amount of wax came out, i felt my hearing improved a little and my head felt a lot better too.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000SOJXGA/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I should add my hearing has gone a little just because i am older too, i can only hear to about a higher frequency of 13Khz these days, but dialogue in films is mixed for reference level, sometimes movies can get re-mixed for the home and they can be played much lower and the dialogue and overall mix sounds a lot more acceptable when played 20db or so below those reference points, sometimes not, i find the nearer i am to reference the easier the dialogue can be heard on some films and the better the overall sound mix becomes, the trouble is that i have neighbours, it's probably just old age though as like you i sometimes have trouble hearing people speak when there is noise in a room.

One final thing, i think the center speaker is the most important speaker you have in your system, it's worth spending extra on that speaker and some matching fronts with your center, i bought new speakers a few months ago, the center is huge, much bigger than the old one, better frequency response too, i feel the dialogue is better because of my upgrade so just because we have some hearing loss it doesn't mean we cannot improve things for ourselves, it might be worth investing in some new speakers.

Type A · Dec 19, 2013

Jeffery_H said:
The advice as a whole from others is not going to help you much.

I disagree. Even with hearing loss better gear and acoustic considerations can make a big and immediate difference in clarity. If you can hear crap, you can hear clarity. Dialog doesnt start at the highest frequencies of human hearing so a loss of the highest frequencies (where loss usually begins) is unlikely to have an effect on dialog until the loss starts to get to a certain point (for dialog thats a loss starting at 8k and below).

schan1269 · Dec 19, 2013

Lol, so true..."If you can hear crap, you can hear clarity"

Jeffery_H · Dec 19, 2013

FoxyMulder said:
You might think me crazy for mentioning this but ear wax can be a real problem as we get older, i had a buildup in my ears affecting my hearing, i bought the syringe below and some good ear wax drops, it's important to use the ear wax drops first for several days and then follow the instructions for the syringe, don't apply too much pressure when using the syringe, it has instructions for use, i found i needed to do it about twenty five times each ear, a huge amount of wax came out, i felt my hearing improved a little and my head felt a lot better too.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000SOJXGA/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That's true about wax buildup, some people need their ears cleaned out about twice a year. I know when I got my ears checked by an Audiologist he said some people it's common in and they can feel or hear a difference as it starts to build back up. However, the Doctor STRONGLY recommended against using any home kit or do-it-yourself methods. You may cause damage or infections otherwise he said. That's why an Audiologist has special Doctor tools for this very thing, wax removal and has flushing their assistant uses during the process. I highly recommend seeing a real Audiologist for any hearing issues.

Good luck, hope things work out.

Jeffery_H · Dec 19, 2013

schan1269 said:
Lol, so true..."If you can hear crap, you can hear clarity"

Sorry, but that's a totally false statement. Any good Audiologist will tell you that hearing is very complicated and just because you can hear some things does not mean you can hear CLEARLY. Everyone has hearing loss that's unique in some way to that person. My relative is a Doctor of Audiology and he treats things like this all the time. Some people can hear certain words, not others. Some can hear parts of a word, but not the full word. Some can hear only specific tones of a voice, such as more male than female. The list goes on and on, but just because you can hear something does NOT mean anything by itself.

schan1269 · Dec 19, 2013

Jeffery_H said:
Sorry, but that's a totally false statement. Any good Audiologist will tell you that hearing is very complicated and just because you can hear some things does not mean you can hear CLEARLY. Everyone has hearing loss that's unique in some way to that person. My relative is a Doctor of Audiology and he treats things like this all the time. Some people can hear certain words, not others. Some can hear parts of a word, but not the full word. Some can hear only specific tones of a voice, such as more male than female. The list goes on and on, but just because you can hear something does NOT mean anything by itself.

I'm not the one to originally say that.

I'm in my 40s and have had the ear-wax thing done. I do not use Q-tips. I bought, long ago, a device for the purpose. I still get it done at the doctor, if I'm there for something else...and add it in.

For me(and yes, everybody hears differently...) I lose the ability to hear mumbled dialog before I lose the ability to hear clarity.

Meaning...When I get build up, I can still hear my SACD/DVD-A just fine. I lose Spotify and Slacker.

Type A · Dec 19, 2013

Jeffery_H said:
Sorry, but that's a totally false statement. Any good Audiologist will tell you that hearing is very complicated and just because you can hear some things does not mean you can hear CLEARLY. Everyone has hearing loss that's unique in some way to that person. My relative is a Doctor of Audiology and he treats things like this all the time. Some people can hear certain words, not others. Some can hear parts of a word, but not the full word. Some can hear only specific tones of a voice, such as more male than female. The list goes on and on, but just because you can hear something does NOT mean anything by itself.

Wow, talk about missing the point. Proper reproduction is the first thing you consider when dialog is lacking, especially when proper reproduction hasnt been considered at all and proper dialog reproduction is the single most common complaint. To claim that previous advice is, "not going to help you much" is a serious disservice, even to an elderly person. If anthing proper reproduction is even more important to an elderly person and if you are having problems hearing sound hearing POOR sound is only going to make it worst.

FoxyMulder · Dec 19, 2013

Jeffery_H said:
the Doctor STRONGLY recommended against using any home kit or do-it-yourself methods. You may cause damage or infections otherwise he said. That's why an Audiologist has special Doctor tools for this very thing, wax removal and has flushing their assistant uses during the process. I highly recommend seeing a real Audiologist for any hearing issues.

Good luck, hope things work out.

It's true you have to be careful but the syringe i recommended is specially made so it doesn't damage the ears as you cannot point it directly into the eardrum, it's very effective as long as you follow the instructions.

dsigmon · Dec 19, 2013

Thanks for all the good input.

I don't think earwax is a problem. I hear sound volume pretty well.

When I'm watching a plain drama movie, I have very little problem discerning what is being said. If I'm watching an action/adventure movie the special effects just seem to drown out dialogue.

I was watching Pirates of the Carribean latest flick & between the sound of the wind, waves, cannon fire from the ship, the actors trying to speak in an old english brogue, I could understand about every 7th or 8th word.

Right now I'm using just the speakers in my 13 yr old rear projection TV. They are a little larger than most speakers on flat panels but aren't very good.

I am going to explore the sound bar Jeffrey mentioned.

I am also going to look at a good center channel speaker as well. I need new speakers anyway.

Someone also mentioned going to a home theater store & listen to different setups to find what sounds best to me. I'm going to try that too.

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