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My dilemma: Panasonic ZT vs. Samsung F8500


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#21 of 308 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted November 07 2013 - 09:11 AM

Well...I made my decision...

 

I just ordered the Panasonic 65" ZT.

 

It goes against everything my gut is telling me to do.  Even when I was

on the phone with Value Electronic's Robert Zohn, we discussed how 

much better that Samsung television looked.  However, in the end, Robert

gave the nudge to the ZT, since I would be watching it in a totally darkened

environment.

 

The display will be here Monday or Tuesday.  Need to break it in for 300

hours and then eventually get it calibrated.


 

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#22 of 308 OFFLINE   Robert Crawford

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Posted November 07 2013 - 09:18 AM

I would have made a different decision if my gut told me to buy the Samsung.  Anyway, you can't go wrong with either display as both, are top of the line, so keep us informed on how it looks in your HT environment.


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#23 of 308 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted November 07 2013 - 09:20 AM

There "might be" good news...

 

It appears that Panny Professional Plasma will continue on(of course they'll still cost $5k and up) until the RGB printed OLED is ready for primetime.

 

There are orders on the 85" and 103" that won't be filled till middle of next year...and orders are still being taken.



#24 of 308 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted November 07 2013 - 09:24 AM

One of the deciding issues on not going with the Samsung was that it

*allegedly* suffers from floating blacks.

 

Have no idea what floating blacks are.  I am guessing most people don't.

 

However, I am told that people are driven crazy by them when they know

what they are seeing.

 

There was also a single comment made about the Samsung being blurry

in motion scenes, but really, I didn't see any other statements concerning it.


 

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#25 of 308 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted November 07 2013 - 09:28 AM

The "fuzzy/blurry" Samsung picture comes from the over-excited green. Even though I loathe Samsung CE...even I'll admit that issue has been gone on Samsung plasma over $1300 for two years now. The only time it really occurs is when you are watching native 480i/P and the TV itself has to upscale.

 

Some examples of the blur were accounted to being lousy cap'd power supplies(and we all know about that long running issue)



#26 of 308 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted November 07 2013 - 09:29 AM

Schan,

 

What do you think?

The Samsung or the Panny?

 

(I noticed you said you hate their Consumer Electronics, but they have

made an exceptional plasma this year)


 

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#27 of 308 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted November 07 2013 - 09:35 AM

I've never seen them side-by-side outside of a store. Store lighting(even if "controlled") sucks.

 

Bright always wins in that situation. Remove the lousy lighting...



#28 of 308 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted November 07 2013 - 09:40 AM

One of the high end boutiques around me uses 8500k lighting in their projector room. Even when dimmed it sucks. They do this because "brighter projectors combat 8500k better than a dimmer one"...regardless of the actual luminance.

 

Change your bulbs from 8500 to darn near anything else...and brightness matters less.



#29 of 308 OFFLINE   Sam Posten

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Posted November 07 2013 - 10:38 AM

Good luck Ron!

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#30 of 308 OFFLINE   FoxyMulder

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Posted November 07 2013 - 11:53 AM

One of the deciding issues on not going with the Samsung was that it

*allegedly* suffers from floating blacks.

 

Have no idea what floating blacks are.  I am guessing most people don't.

 

However, I am told that people are driven crazy by them when they know

what they are seeing.

 

There was also a single comment made about the Samsung being blurry

in motion scenes, but really, I didn't see any other statements concerning it.

 

We have a different term for it in the UK, we call it brightness pops, when some scenes go from bright to dark, it doesn't happen when dark scenes go to bright just bright to dark, it is actually mostly subtle, i believe the F8500 is supposed to have had a firmware update to minimize it.

 

Yes it can be annoying when you see it, i can live with it on my set due to the fact i don't get any image retention and it's hardly noticeable on most HD content these days, only 3D with it's added brightness brings it out in some scenes.

 

I did some testing, adjusting the cell light to 17 on 2D content totally gets rid of it, after the latest firmware update - before that update it was 13 with the cell light, with 3D content it is a different matter, it's automatically brighter and it's still there, you have to lower it into very low single figures to get rid of the issue, having said that i only saw two brightness pops ( that were obvious ) during the whole film of Resident Evil: Afterlife and that includes the white room end scenes, i suppose it depends on the viewer though and their tolerance levels.

 

I have never noticed any bad blurring on motion with my set, nor buzzing for that matter, nor any issues other than the brightness pops.

 

In fact floating blacks is indeed something else, from a review at HDTV Test it says this about floating blacks, i can honestly say floating blacks is not an issue, the brightness pops is an issue, although it's a minor annoyance these days, the review below is talking about my TV the E6500 and not the F8500.

 

As for floating blacks, those are here too, but they’re well disguised to the extent that they shouldn’t prove distracting. During a letterboxed film, if we paid attention to the black bars, we could see that they would sometimes rise to a brigther level during overall brighter scenes. However, surprisingly for us, they also sometimes lowered, too: during some scenes in Se7en they could reach 0.015 cd/m2, before returning to the baseline level of 0.02 cd/m2.

 

During content with a good mix of dark and light scenes intercut, we saw that in the most extreme cases, the blacks rose to 0.045 cd/m2 – which is the same baseline black level we measured from a 64″ Samsung plasma display last year (coincidence, we think not).

We feel the effect is minimal, for two reasons: first of all, the brightness very smoothly fades to a brighter or darker level, rather than instantly shifting in a single movement as it has done on some other plasma displays. Secondly, seeing as it only happens during brighter scenes, the “surround effect” property of the human visual system, coupled with the fading, will make the effect less perceptible. It will be more visible in a pitch black room, though, for this same reason. This is nowhere near as visible or as annoying as dynamic backlighting/ “auto dimming” on LCD-based TVs, though, because the blacks only become minutely higher, the whole screen does not get brighter or darker as it would with an affected LED LCD TV.


Edited by FoxyMulder, November 07 2013 - 12:08 PM.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#31 of 308 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted November 12 2013 - 12:07 AM

Received my new Panasonic 65" ZT60 last evening.

 

Only had time to watch it for about 10 minutes after getting everything installed.

 

Viewed a few HBO HD channels.

 

Very, very disappointed out of the box.

 

Picture is dull.  Colors washed out.

 

I have it on THX Cinema setting, in which every single reviewer claims is a near perfect

setting out of the box.

 

The picture has none of the "color pop" that my THX 3D LG plasma displayed.

 

I am going to play with the display further today.  Going to use some suggested settings

to tweak the picture.

 

However, if I can't get this display to look better than it does right now, I might have to

consider sending it back for the Samsung f8500.

 

Something cannot be right.  Every single review out there places this display as the absolute

best that exists.  For it to look like this, I am guessing, something must be up.  However, it 

looks pretty much like it did when I viewed it last week with Robert Zohn at Value Electronics.

 

Light output is fine.

 

The build date is October 2013 and not a hint of fan noise.

 

Please don't consider this an official review.  Again, I only briefly played with this display

last evening as it came so late in the afternoon.


 

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#32 of 308 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted November 12 2013 - 12:55 AM

Still putting this display through its paces.

 

Have further bad news...

 

The 3D is horrendous on this display.  It's non-existent and I am hoping I have it on the wrong setting.

 

Just put in the reference 3D disc, "Imax Under The Sea"

 

Chapter 3, there is a cod fish that is supposed to come inches from your nose.

 

There is absolutely no pop-out and no sense of depth with the 3D on this ZT60.

 

I have the picture setting on THX Cinema 3D.  

 

On the plus side, though broadcast television looks lackluster, Blu-rays look significantly better.

 

Could not believe the level of black in this display.  Just the Oppo menu alone displayed a level of black I have never seen elsewhere.

 

However, I can't get this display to give me an optimal level of 3D (and I have the LG 3D plasma to compare it to), I am going to have to return it.

 

It's amazing how bad the 3D is right now on this ZT.  Anybody that has not had the opportunity to compare it to another display may miss it -- but trust me -- I have seen much better.

 

Hopefully someone can assist with why I am not seeing significant depth and pop-out.


 

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#33 of 308 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted November 12 2013 - 01:35 AM

Further findings on 3D performance...

 

I write 3D reviews for this website.  I own close to 100 3D Blu-ray titles.  I know them pretty much inside out.

 

This display is absolutely worthless when it comes to properly displaying 3D content.

 

Put in A Turtles Tale (region 2), which is by far, the best 3D disc for pop-out. Animated turtles should swim inches before the eyes. Instead, everything remained within the confines of the screen.  There was no sense of pop-out whatsoever.

 

Switched over to Disney's Cars, recently released to 3D Blu-ray.  Though this is an upconversion, there are interesting layering effects with the racing stats that appear on the screen.  All of it looked flat here.

 

Next was Pacific Rim, another upconversion, but one of the very best out there.  This disc should display infinite depth.  Instead, everything looked more flat than 3-dimensional.

 

Next was Hugo and Monsters vs. Aliens.  These were the first two 3D titles that really gave me a sense of depth.  Not sure why both these titles are displaying differently, but the depth looked fairly good on both.  Saw a lot of crosstalk on Hugo, which is normal for this title.

 

During the closing credits of Despicable Me, the minions try to outdo each other in placing props to extend further out of the display area.  None of those props extend beyond the confines of the screen.

 

My former plasma was the LG 60PX950 THX 3D display.  It had amazing 3D capability, so I know what I am comparing the Panasonic ZT 60 to.  There is just a night and day difference between the 3D performance on both these displays to the point where the 3D practically doesn't exist on the Panasonic.  A lot of the content on the Panasonic looks flat -- even in instances, when removing the eyewear, that you can see significant blur in the picture (meaning 3D intensity is high).

 

I admit, black levels are just amazing on this display.  I have never seen anything like it.

 

Blu-rays look quite good.  Broadcast HD television not so good.

 

I am going to look into returning this display.  Whether I will chance on getting the Samsung f8500 or just going back to my LG plasma is something I will have to think further about.


 

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#34 of 308 OFFLINE   Robert Crawford

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Posted November 12 2013 - 02:08 AM

Since I can't be there viewing what you're seeing right now, the only thing I have to say if you're not happy with it then return it.  IMO, you should have gone with your gut feeling when it comes to any buyer's remorse.


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#35 of 308 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted November 12 2013 - 02:14 AM

Crawdaddy,

 

You are right....though I couldn't view 3D content in the store.

 

I could live with this display for its Blu-ray performance.  The blacks are friggin' AMAZING.

 

But you know how much I love 3D.  This display just doesn't do it justice.

 

I have to look at all the costs in freighting it back. I am even concerned about getting it back into the box.


 

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#36 of 308 OFFLINE   Robert Crawford

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Posted November 12 2013 - 03:20 AM

Earlier in this thread, I tried to warn you about the 3-D performance of the Pannys.  For most people like myself they're satisfactory, but somebody like you that's really into 3-D and prefers as much pop out as possible, the 3-D on the Panny is not as pronounced as some other brands.


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#37 of 308 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted November 12 2013 - 04:50 AM

Something happened, guys....

 

All of a sudden the 3D changed.

 

I am still in the middle of going through dozens of discs but the UNDER THE SEA disc finally kicked in and the cod fish scene worked -- perhaps more spectacular than before.

 

Same thing with DESPICABLE ME.  Suddenly, the sequences with the minions trying to edge out of the screen, finally played as it should.

 

TITANIC and PACIFIC RIM, both of which are upconverted, still did not look as good as it did on the LG.

 

..but A TURTLE'S TALE....Wow and Wow!  The amazing in-your-face effect finally worked.  It's there and it looks AMAZING.

 

 

Now someone on another site is reporting they had the same problem initially.  I don't know what could have happened that all of a sudden the 3D became more intense.  

 

I am hoping that problem is solved, as really, I don't want to go through the process of returning this display.

 

Give me a few more hours.  I am still auditioning a handful of 3D content. Will report back again.

 

...and my apologies for the conflicting reports.  I don't know what happened.  Same settings -- but suddenly the display came to life.


 

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#38 of 308 OFFLINE   TheBat

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Posted November 12 2013 - 05:12 AM

have you tried the spears and minsil disc for both 2d/3d. its the second edition. that will probably help.

 

Jacob



#39 of 308 OFFLINE   Robert Crawford

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Posted November 12 2013 - 05:14 AM

 

Something happened, guys....

 

All of a sudden the 3D changed.

 

I am still in the middle of going through dozens of discs but the UNDER THE SEA disc finally kicked in and the cod fish scene worked -- perhaps more spectacular than before.

 

Same thing with DESPICABLE ME.  Suddenly, the sequences with the minions trying to edge out of the screen, finally played as it should.

 

TITANIC and PACIFIC RIM, both of which are upconverted, still did not look as good as it did on the LG.

 

..but A TURTLE'S TALE....Wow and Wow!  The amazing in-your-face effect finally worked.  It's there and it looks AMAZING.

 

 

Now someone on another site is reporting they had the same problem initially.  I don't know what could have happened that all of a sudden the 3D became more intense.  

 

I am hoping that problem is solved, as really, I don't want to go through the process of returning this display.

 

Give me a few more hours.  I am still auditioning a handful of 3D content. Will report back again.

 

...and my apologies for the conflicting reports.  I don't know what happened.  Same settings -- but suddenly the display came to life.

 

Ron,

 

Maybe, it's because the glasses have recharged? 


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#40 of 308 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted November 12 2013 - 05:26 AM

The glasses that Panasonic gives you are battery operated.

 

When you press the sync button on the glasses, a little icon shows up

on the Panny that shows you are not only connected, but the battery status.

 

Nothing about my initial settings changed.

 

However, suddenly, I am sitting here with my mouth gaped wide open as I

view some really great 3D.

 

The black levels on this display really intensify the effect.

 

The only thing I find, thus far, is that upconverted titles like TITANIC and PACIFIC RIM 3D

don't look as pronounced as they did on my LG.

 

However stuff like Megamind, Monsters vs. Aliens and Despicable Me look AMAZING.

 

The only thing that needs to be worked on is broadcast TV.  It looks terrible.

 

I am going to borrow other user's settings to try and tweak it.  

 

If I can get broadcast TV to look good, I will keep the display.  The blacks are just too good

to give up.


 

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