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deep space 9 question ?


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#41 of 159 OFFLINE   Carabimero

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Posted November 15 2013 - 09:29 PM

I'm curious to see what you think when you get to the final season.



#42 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 15 2013 - 09:45 PM

well, they can choose to write stuff that gives spark to a romance, etc.

 

but what i am saying is that as they have portrayed the 2 characters at this point, they would not have fallen in love with one another.

 

the same thing occurred in voyager - seven would never have fallen for chakotay.

 

no matter how many romantic settings they make after the fact, the basis for it was never there, when they made that move.

 

in real life, once we get past the physical or visual attractions, relationships last or not, based upon the type of people they are.



#43 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 15 2013 - 09:51 PM

when i see her move, terry farrell does not look very athletically oriented.

 

so having her in fights, etc. looks sorta silly to me.  and especially dueling with worf. 

 

but if they want worf to fall in love with her, they gotta make her with a lot of physicality, like a klingon woman - cuz over and over again worf has talked about how rough klingon women are when they make love, etc.

 

and it just isnt there.



#44 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 15 2013 - 09:54 PM

on the other hand, tasha yar (or her double) did pretty well on a physicality rating.

 

she moved and handled her body in a way that looked convincing.



#45 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 15 2013 - 10:22 PM

which brings up another point that the writers really goofed on.

 

in this last episode, worf and jadzia had rough sex, and now by klingon tradition, they are supposed to marry.

 

and before that, they have a whole thing about how worf doesnt really know about klingon women, so why is he so interested in grilka when he has jadzia staring him in the face.

 

well, this may fly for those who have not seen tng.

 

but for those who have seen tng, worf is quite knowledgeable about klingon women.

 

they just really strayed from the facts, and created something from nothing - i guess they thought it would help in ratings, etc.



#46 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 17 2013 - 07:58 AM

the tribbles have returned !!



#47 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 19 2013 - 07:49 PM

odo is a changeling, again.

 

i think he is gonna find out that the founders deliberately sent the sick changeling to him - my suspicion at the moment.



#48 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 20 2013 - 08:42 AM

i just watched purgatory's shadow.

 

did not find it believable.

 

sisko goes way beyond to capture one guy.

 

and in the end, to do so, he completely displaces an entire planet of people.

 

and walks away from it, like a praised cowboy.

 

he should have been executed, or at the very least, imprisoned for life.

 

 



#49 of 159 OFFLINE   Jason_V

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Posted November 20 2013 - 08:59 AM

i just watched purgatory's shadow.

 

did not find it believable.

 

sisko goes way beyond to capture one guy.

 

and in the end, to do so, he completely displaces an entire planet of people.

 

and walks away from it, like a praised cowboy.

 

he should have been executed, or at the very least, imprisoned for life.

 

I think you're mixing up episodes.  "In Purgatory's Shadow" is the first part of the Worf/Garak in a Dominion prison camp story.  The episode I think you're thinking of is "For the Uniform" (one right before that).

 

I understand what you're saying, but also keep Sisko's actions in context.  Eddington was someone who lied to Sisko for about 2 years and eventually betrayed his trust.  Eddington also betrayed the Federation/Starfleet by aligning himself with the Maquis.  In "For the Cause", Eddington compares Starfleet to the Borg, just worse.  He did this right to Sisko's face knowing this would severely wound the captain (Jennifer was killed at Wolf 359 after all).  Eddington is a traitor and probably high on the Wanted list.  Sisko got his man; does how really matter

 

Moreover, Sisko just used a weapon on one settlement, not the entire planet, as far as I remember.  I could be wrong, though.  At the end of the ep, Sisko acknowledges he worked outside the rules of Starfleet.  But do any of his crew turn him in?  Nope.  Why?  They understand the actions in context of what is going on.



#50 of 159 OFFLINE   Ockeghem

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Posted November 20 2013 - 09:27 AM

Jason,Excellent post above.  I would say that Eddington (DS9) and Seska (VOY) are my two most favorite characters to 'hate' in Trek.  But both were superb in their roles and really made the viewer uncomfortable.

 

Although I recall the scene (on the screen) between Eddington and Sisko where the former says that Starfleet is worse than the Borg, I didn't (at the time) think of the events of Wolf 359.  That adds yet another level to that particular interaction between the two of them.


Edited by Ockeghem, November 20 2013 - 09:30 AM.


#51 of 159 OFFLINE   Jason_V

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Posted November 20 2013 - 11:42 AM

Thanks Scott.  In all honesty, the Borg thing was something that came to mind while I was writing.  Having seen Les Mis, I need to go back and rewatch "For the Uniform" again.

 

One of the things that DS9 did very very well was not letting their characters "wimp out."  I won't ruin the rest of the show for jimmy, but I think there are a lot of examples through the final two years.

 

Worf trying to kill Kurn in "Sons of Mogh" is a good example from Season 4.



#52 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 20 2013 - 06:33 PM

gosh guys - lets look at the whole picture.

 

somebody calls me a name, whopping whillikers !!

 

now that entitles to me to displace a whole planet of innocent people ??

 

sisko was way in the wrong.  and that does not fit his character.

 

nowhere in the series so far does it depict sisko as being that irrational of a person !!

 

eddington is doing something that only he believes in, but is also a righteous thing.

 

the cardassians pillaged the bajorans for 50 years.

 

they finally get free.  and now the federation works out some truce and these few planets are now once again in cardassian space.

 

and you dont think they have a right to do what they are doing ??

 

the federation is in the wrong.

 

eddington could have killed sisko twice, and many other people.  instead he merely disabled the ship.

 

i dont know if you guys caught the analogy ?  or even if it was intended as so ?

 

but it mirrors a real situation here on earth that has caused problems for the last 70 years.

 

and that has to do with the u.n. stepping in and seizing the land and giving it back to the jews.

 

and people wonder why the arabs hate us !!

 

we had absolutely no right to do that.  but of course, oil is all around that region, and we want to have a place there that is friendly to us.

 

we get spoonfed with a lot of crap that isnt true.  our govt is not as saintly as they try to appear to be to us americans.

 

eddington is not that important - he is just one maquis leader.  this was strictly a personal vendetta that sisko did.  and went against starfleet.

 

as i said, if this was a real case here on earth, sisko would be very likely facing execution.



#53 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 20 2013 - 06:41 PM

in fact, here is an example.

 

bush went after hussein, when hussein would not allow verification as he had signed in the treaty.

 

now just what do you think would have happened if bush had gassed some country, displacing all its people, so they would tell him where hussein was ?

 

it is a very exacting analogy, and one that brings in real events that happened in our lifetime.

 

the more i think about this episode, the more irritated i get.

 

not irritated at the producers of the show, since they never came out and condoned the actions.

 

they are merely showing the federation condoning the actions, and allowing us to give it some thought, and form our own opinions.

 

for those of you who think sisko was in the right, i would suggest you give it some more thought.



#54 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 20 2013 - 08:16 PM

okay - now i just finished purgatory

 

that was a good show.

 

garak adds a very special dimension to the show.

 

i have always felt that down deep, he is a good person.

 

he deliberately let bashir nearby, when he knew he was gonna talk to tain.



#55 of 159 OFFLINE   Jason_V

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Posted November 20 2013 - 08:26 PM

I don't really have time to dispute every single line, jimmy, but here's the Reader's Digest version:

 

Eddington didn't call Sisko a name.  He said the Federation was worse than the "race" that killed Sisko's wife.  Knowing Sisko and how hard he took that loss, of course that was a slap in the face. 

 

But I digress from that point.

 

Second, you are right: the Bajorans fought for their freedom from Cardassians.  However, the planets that were in the Demilitarized Zone were Federation planets they exchanged for some Cardassian planets to keep the peace.  Please reference the TNG episode's "Journey's End" and "Preemptive Strike."  Also the DS9 two parter "The Maquis."  At this point in the franchise, there are not Bajorans on those colonies/planets as far as we know.  Eddington and the other Maquis we see in this episode are human.

 

So you have a government (Federation) signing a treaty with another government (Cardassians) to keep a very fragile peace.  (See the TNG episode "The Wounded" and the "Chain of Command" two parter.)  They traded land/planets.  They gave their people time and resources to resettle.  Those people didn't and chose to become terrorists.

 

I won't talk about any of the real world parallels you mentioned since politics are not to be discussed here.

 

Sisko, in this episode, was preserving the peace to the best of his ability.  If he allowed Eddington to get away/carry out the Maquis plan, there may have been another war with the Cardassians...which no one wanted.  What was Starfleet going to say?  "Gee, Ben, you accomplished a goal and made sure 1,000,000 people didn't die.  At the expense of a settlement/colony.  Bad captain?"  No.  Sisko and Starfleet captains have discretion in these matters.

 

Let's follow the facts in this episode: Eddington is a traitor.  Eddington sabotaged the Defiant and attacked two Bolian ships.  Eddington used bio weapons on a Cardassian settlement, forcing those people to leave.  Eddington attacked and disabled the Maliche.  Eddington disabled a Cardassian transport carries refugees.  Sisko uses Eddington's strategy and employs bio weapons on a Maquis settlement.  Explain to me, exactly, how Sisko is wrong here?  His ship has been attacked.  His ship has been disabled.  He has been betrayed.  He did the only thing he really could do: an eye for an eye.  In Sisko's actions, no one dies.  They have to evacuate and live somewhere else, but he did not attack anyone.  Eddington did.  Several times.

 

If this episode is causing you this much consternation, I'm excited for some season 6 and season 7 episodes.  They may blow your mind.  :o



#56 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 20 2013 - 09:26 PM

well, i wonder how idiotic sisko feels now.

 

he thought he was fooled by eddington.

 

well cardassia has now just joined the dominion.

 

and promised to wipe out every klingon and every maquis colony in cardassian space.

 

so eddington and his troups knew a helluva lot more than sisko did about cardassia.

 

and those few measly little bajoran colonies in cardassian space will easily be given up, for the betterment of the rest of the federation.

 

you see, people see things differently, based upon what is good for them.

 

however, in this case, there was one aggressor, name the cardassians.

 

and one victim - the bajorans, who are now banding as maquis, for self-preservation, as any federation group would have done.

 

but then it would have been okay, by the logic of some of you.

 

you guys are really wrong about this !!!!!!!



#57 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 20 2013 - 09:29 PM

if they had even one brain left, they would let eddington go free, and allow him the ability to help his people, and help the federation, as well.

 

i respect eddington a helluva lot more than i respect a lot of the other characters.

 

and he is a helluva lot smarter than sisko and the bunch.  so he might just be able to make some sort of difference.



#58 of 159 OFFLINE   Jason_V

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Posted November 20 2013 - 09:48 PM

Okay, there's no way you can equate what Eddington was doing in "For the Uniform" with the eventual Cardassian/Dominion alliance.  He didn't go after Cardassians to prevent the alliance; he did it as revenge for the colony swap. 

 

For the last time, jimmy, the Demilitarized Zone was comprised of Federation colonies, not Bajoran.  At this point, Bajor is not part of the Federation and the Federation would have no juristiction.  Period.  There may be Bajorans living on those colonies, but they are not Bajoran.  Look at the Maquis in Voyager (Torres, Chakotay, Paris...who was Bajoran there...nobody!)

 

Therefore, the FEDERATION colonies that are swapped with Cardassia were beholden to follow FEDERATION law.  Those colonists settled on worlds close to the border knowing full well relations between the governments was fragile and they could be on the front line of a new war.  It would be like me going to live on the border of Haiti and the Dominican Republic and being shocked if the two governments decided to swap some land...and I lived in another country.

 

The Cardassians are not the agressors, at least for the Maquis.  If they want to be upset with anyone, it should be the Federation.  But no, they took their anger (their terrorism) out on the Cardassians instead.  And in order to preserve peace, the Federation had to do something.

 

If the Federation did nothing to stop the Maquis, they would have likely been in another war with the Cardassians.  The Maquis would never win versus the Cardassians.  They're a much smaller group than the Bajorans (much much smaller).  Sisko, therefore, stopped Eddington, theoretically, from starting another war.  We know what happened in the long run, but there's no way Sisko could have known that.  In essence, he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't.  One thing the Cardassians couldn't say is that Sisko didn't do everything in his power to stop the Maquis.



#59 of 159 OFFLINE   Jason_V

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Posted November 20 2013 - 09:52 PM

One other point: in TNG "The Wounded," the Cardassians are suspected of running weapons to colonists.  Captain Maxwell blows up Cardassian ships to stop them.  And then Picard has to stop Maxwell.  Not because he was wrong, but because Picard knows the peace is very fragile.  Maxwell was right, just went about proving it in the wrong way.

 

Same with Eddington.  I personally think the Maquis got a bum deal, but they had their vote and didn't win.  Time to pack up and leave or face the consequences.  Instead, they decided to start murdering people--this is done in multiple episodes, including DS9 "The Maquis" (Sisko killed no one). 



#60 of 159 OFFLINE   jimmyjet

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Posted November 20 2013 - 10:21 PM

okay, from the wiki

 

According to the fictional storyline of the Star Trek universe, the Maquis were formed in the 24th Century after a peace treaty was enacted between the United Federation of Planets and the Cardassian Union, redesignating the demilitarized zone between the two powers, which resulted in the Federation ceding several of their colony worlds to the Cardassians. Although the colonists were offered free relocation to elsewhere in Federation territory, some insisted on remaining on the ceded worlds, effectively becoming Cardassian Union citizens. Some of these colonists subsequently formed the Maquis to protect themselves from Cardassian aggression, although they received no official support from the Federation, who feared breaking the peace treaty with the Cardassians, which would lead to war.

 

well, the aggressors were definitely the cardassians.  this is who the maquis were trying to protect themselves from.

 

i cede the point of them being federation colonies.

 

but they were traded to the cardassians, so to speak.

 

and your only statement is that they had the freedom to leave ?

 

how would you like it if everyone here on earth was given the freedom to leave, or be part of the borg empire ?

 

the maquis were justified in what they were doing - they did what they had to do in order to protect themselves.

 

and that is why many federation personnel helped the maquis - cuz they knew they had gotten a bum rap from the federation, who basically sold them out.

 

it is one thing for the federation not to protect them.  it is quite another to go hunting them down, when it was the federation themselves who caused the problem.






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