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Marantz 4001 7.1 Analog w/Denon 1930ci DVD-A/SACD Player


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#1 of 13 Gerald LaFrance

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Posted October 24 2013 - 06:18 PM

Hey Everybody been a while since I posted here so here it goes..

 

I have a Marantz 4001 AVR with a Denon 1930ci DVD-A/SACD Player that I still use for Multichannel music..

 

Now my question is how would I go about setting the bass management and speaker levels in this setup??

 

I do Believe I have to use the Player for the Bass Management. But I am unsure where to set the speaker levels as I can do so in the AVR and Player..

 

Now I read tons of topics about the bass levels on SACD and DVD-A, I understand that fine but I just need to find someone who knows the answer to my question which is where do I set the Speaker levels in the Player or AVR..

 

Now If I do them in the AVR I am going o need a SACD/DVD-A Test tone disc any reccomendations as my AVR Does NOT play test tones out the 7.1 inputs..


"IF the Facts don't Fit the Theory Change the Facts"    Albert Einstein

#2 of 13 gene c

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Posted October 25 2013 - 03:11 PM

Bass Management is set in the player. Volume levels can be set in the player and the receiver. If the receiver doesn't remember speaker volume levels for each input then you should try setting them in the receiver first (for the other inputs) and then try and set the levels in the player to a satisfying level.

 

It's been a while since I set up a universal disc player to a receiver without BM through the multi-ch analog inputs but as I recall I set the volume levels in the player first to help off-set that low subwoofer level (-10 db) issue. I set the subs volume level to it's highest position in the player, then set the center channel to -5 and matched the fronts and surrounds to the center (with an SPL meter). This made the subwoofers volume 15 db higher then the center to start with.

 

After doing all that I then went into the receivers speaker setup menu and set all the levels to "0". Un-fortunately it didn't sound quite right so I reset the levels in the receiver with the SPL meter. I don't think I ever got it "just right" but it was good enough at the time. This is a totally wrong way to do it under normal circumstance but it's what I had to do to get the subwoofer level back up to a somewhat normal level.

 

The player was a Yamaha 6770 (same as the 750) and the receiver was an H/K 520 which remembered individual speaker volumes for each input (brilliant!) so the other inputs were not affected by M/C analog input speaker volume levels. Some newer receiver have a setting which automatically increases the subs volume level 10 db when the m/c input is selected.

 

A few years later I had an OPPO 83SE and an H/K 7200 which did allow for BM through the analog inputs if you so desired. They were much easier to setup and the subwoofer volume level was the same as any other input. It sounded fantastic. But, never being satisfied, I sold them and kept looking (meaning buying) for something better. Not sure I've found it yet.

 

If the 4001 doesn't allow for individual volume settings for each input then I'd set the levels in the receiver first and then try and reset them in the player to acceptable levels.

 

If someone else has a better way of doing it hopefully they will respond since I was never really happy with the outcome from the way I remember doing it (several times in several different ways).

 

BTW, I currently have a Marantz 7005 and also an 8002 (not in use) and the newer models (post x004) just don't sound the same. Not bad, just not the same. They changed the DSP chip between the 04's and 05's. Could be all in my head but the new ones sound like a Denon.


Edited by gene c, October 25 2013 - 03:15 PM.

"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#3 of 13 Gerald LaFrance

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Posted October 25 2013 - 08:46 PM

Well I have separate speaker levels in my Reciever for the different outputs..

What I need to know is are the Test Tones on the DVD Player for the 7.1 inputs. is it set at 75db or do I need to zero my Receiver main volume to 0??

I will have a look again tomorrow to see if they play at 75db..

But what I did now was max the Sub level in the player to max which came out to about 90db and then adjusted the rest of my Speakers to 75db.. This seemed to have fixed my problem with not much bass on the SACD of Organ Symphony#3 as I played Maestoso and it was really bass heavy..

I will give this disk a proper listening too tomorrow but in the mean time I believe I solved my issues..
"IF the Facts don't Fit the Theory Change the Facts"    Albert Einstein

#4 of 13 gene c

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Posted October 25 2013 - 10:40 PM

I would zero out the levels in the receiver for the m/c input and adjust the volume levels in the player first. If you can't get satisfactory settings from just the player then you can start adjusting the volumes in the avr as well.

 

 

A test disc is needed for adjusting the volumes in the player. I've used several audio test discs and they all did a fine job. Spears an Munsil from OPPO, Sound and Vision, and a couple of others. Chesky is another good one but again, it's been a while since I used the m/c analog outputs so there are probably others I don't know about yet. You can even use the teat tones on some THX movie discs.

 

It's funny that there was a 10 db reduction on the subwoofer output (I can't remember the reason/explanation) but it takes at least a 15 db difference to put it back. Strange.

 

BTW, I have also used .a couple of AudioControl m/c equalizers between the player and the avr. The Bijou and the Rialto both work very well but I preferred the Rialto but the Bijou is probably the better of the two. They are both several years old but are still around $200 on the used market. There's a NIB Rialto on ebay, item number 181132037541, for $399 (ouch!). Both also eq the subwoofer.


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#5 of 13 Gerald LaFrance

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Posted October 26 2013 - 05:23 PM

Well I will need to adjust the levels again as I ONLY have a +10db gain on the sub..

What I did was set the Sub to MAX level which is about with the Receiver set to 0 is 88db.. I set the front L/C/R to about 75db.. I will set it so it is 15db less then the sub..

I listedned to the Organ Symphony #3 it seemed ok but some parts still seemed lower then what the Telarc CD Sounds like..

But I think I got it now and will continue fine tuning my system..
I did find out there are Test Tones on the 1812 Overture SACD I have so I could use those as well but the players tones are good enough I guess??
"IF the Facts don't Fit the Theory Change the Facts"    Albert Einstein

#6 of 13 gene c

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Posted October 27 2013 - 12:58 PM

I don't think there's much if any difference between the test tones on a dvd or SACD disc and those on a fancy setup disc. The fancy ones might have more features like test tracks, frequency tones and mostly better video tests but the audio test tones on your SACD disc should work just fine. But it has been a while since I used any of the setup discs that I have and my memory isn't what it used to be. I'm currently remodeling my livingroom and most of my discs are in storage so unfortunately I can't pull them out for comparison.


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#7 of 13 Gerald LaFrance

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Posted October 27 2013 - 02:13 PM

Well I see the real difference is it might have been louder then the Test tones on the DVD Player.. But I set it them at 75db so just as long as they are all the same level it should be fine..

I also found out I had my sub too hot for regular CD Playing.. I tuned it too about 5db higher then the rest and it seemed to have balanced out the sub some..

Perhaps that is why there was more bass in the CD then the DVD-A od Organ Symphony #3..

Man I spent all this time with a too hot subwoofer.. no wonder the bass seemed a little exaggerated on my CD's..

WEll, I balanced it out before the football game and played a few CD's sounded more balanced and not so much bass from the sub when playing a few songs that are bass heavy..
"IF the Facts don't Fit the Theory Change the Facts"    Albert Einstein

#8 of 13 Gerald LaFrance

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Posted October 31 2013 - 04:15 AM

Well it appears I am a Dummy. I was reading the guide at bluray.com and they say to make the Levels on ALL speakers including the subwoofer to 75db..

 

What I had thought was I needed to set the level on the subwoofer to 90db whilst the speakers are at 75db.. It appears I am wrong in that theory.. The guide Only stated they raise the LFE Channel on the disk NOT the Speaker levels when calibrating..

 

So Today I am going to recalibrate my system accordingly and see how it sounds.. This guide may of be some help as It helped me immensely:

 

 

http://forum.blu-ray...ead.php?t=38765


"IF the Facts don't Fit the Theory Change the Facts"    Albert Einstein

#9 of 13 Gerald LaFrance

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Posted October 31 2013 - 06:42 PM

OK I found out proof positive when using the analog connection for Blu ray and DVD-A/SACD Playback I need to boost the LFE to +10-15db..
"IF the Facts don't Fit the Theory Change the Facts"    Albert Einstein

#10 of 13 gene c

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Posted October 31 2013 - 07:46 PM

From what I've read over the years most people find the volume level of the subwoofer insufficient when matching it to the other speakers. Most everyone bumps the subs volume a few db. Same with the center channel. I usually calibrate the volume levels on the speakers with either an SPL meter or the auto calibration on the receiver (MCACC, Audyssey, etc) and set the volume on the sub "by ear" to whatever sounds good to me.

 

"OK I found out proof positive when using the analog connection for Blu ray and DVD-A/SACD Playback I need to boost the LFE to +10-15db.."

 

As I mentioned in my first post, I found +10 db to still be too low and went to + 15 db. I accomplished this by setting the sub's volume in the player to +10 (it's maximum) and then lowered the other 5 speakers by 5 db which gave a 15 db difference. I then calibrated the speakers in the receiver in the usual way. Unfortunately this puts added strain on the amplifier section as it has to make up the 5 db in over-all volume. DVD-A/SACD over hdmi doesn't have this -10 db subwoofer volume issue so it isn't discussed very often anymore.

 

 


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#11 of 13 Gerald LaFrance

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Posted October 31 2013 - 08:03 PM

Yes I had it at +15db so tomorrow with my Test tones and SPL Meter I am going to properly calibrate the sub. I have the spreadsheet and test tone CD.

 

I can use the test tones on my SACD of 1812 to boost the levels.. I also have the Terminator 2 disk that has some test tones for Blu ray.. but if I set the DVD-A as the blu ray is using the same 7.1 analog inputs on the receiver should be already set. I am just going to double check the levels with the Blu ray test tones on T2..

 

Interesting thing about the center channel I have never read about anybody boosting that channel??


"IF the Facts don't Fit the Theory Change the Facts"    Albert Einstein

#12 of 13 gene c

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Posted November 01 2013 - 02:01 PM

"Interesting thing about the center channel I have never read about anybody boosting that channel??"

 

"I can't hear the dialog!"  

 

"The surrounds aren't working!"

 

"The subwoofer volume is too low!"

 

These are three of the most often heard complaints by those new to home theater. The front speakers always seem to drown out the others. Increasing the volume on the center and subwoofer a little bit usually solves those problems. They are disappointed to hear that the surrounds usually aren't that active and are used mostly for background noise and ambiance.

 


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#13 of 13 Gerald LaFrance

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Posted November 02 2013 - 07:00 AM

Well usually that is caused by not using a SPL Meter and setting the levels correctly..

 

I have read and do turn up the Rear and Side surrounds.. I would say whatever you like is ok with me.. as it is mainly yourself that has to listen to it..

 

I never had a problem hearing dialogue in the center..

 

I am wondering if the AIX Blu ray does all 7 channels for test tones??


"IF the Facts don't Fit the Theory Change the Facts"    Albert Einstein




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