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$1750 hardware budget recommendations?


Best Answer schan1269 , September 25 2013 - 06:22 PM

AVR usually use Class AB. AB "usually" can handle 4ohm loads, but...

 

As the price of an AVR drops...the quality of its power supply goes down. I usually don't recommend using any AVR with 4ohm speakers that doesn't chew at least 600 watts off the wall.

 

The Marantz 6008 pulls 650 off the wall, which means, roughly...530 watts for the audio. Half that, from amp inefficiency, means 265. 265 /7 is 38. That should be enough power...even if it is created with 4ohm resistance. But...it has pre-outs...so you are good.

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#1 of 19 symblized

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Posted September 23 2013 - 05:53 PM

I have a $1750 budget for a disc player and a receiver/separates that will be used for about 70-30 movies/television vs. music. My current plan is an Oppo 105 that I can get for $1099 ($100 off list) and a Marantz SR6007 receiver that I can get for $649. Any other suggestions?
 
These will be powering an all-Martin Logan 5.1 audio setup, with Motion 40 fronts, Motion 30 center, Dynamo 700 sub, and ML in-walls in the rear. The screen is a Panasonic Viera plasma.


#2 of 19 gene c

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Posted September 23 2013 - 07:24 PM

 

Those Motions are 4 ohm speakers. I'd suggest a little more receiver (or separate amp) and a little less OPPO. Ac4l.com has good prices on refurbished receivers. Look at the 705 or Denon 3312/3313 which are very similar to the Marantz on the inside. They also have the Marantz 7006 and 7007 Bluray players. Not quite an OPPO 105 but pretty good none the less.

 

http://www.accessori...4K-Ready/1.html

 

Or the Denon DBT 4010. 125 db s/n ratio.

 

http://www.accessori...!specifications


Edited by gene c, September 23 2013 - 07:31 PM.

"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#3 of 19 symblized

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Posted September 23 2013 - 07:41 PM

Those Motions are 4 ohm speakers. I'd suggest a little more receiver (or separate amp) and a little less OPPO. Ac4l.com has good prices on refurbished receivers. Look at the 705 or Denon 3312/3313 which are very similar to the Marantz on the inside. They also have the Marantz 7006 and 7007 Bluray players. Not quite an OPPO 105 but pretty good none the less.

 

http://www.accessori...4K-Ready/1.html

 

Or the Denon DBT 4010. 125 db s/n ratio.

 

http://www.accessori...!specifications

 

I know the Marantz 6007 isn't rated at 4 ohm, but I would assume it could handle those speakers, no? I've read both the concern -- often about the heat -- and rebuttals of said concern elsewhere, but I don't know who to believe. Are there any particular drawbacks that concern you there?

 

I am also worried about the versatility and the quality of sound of alternatives to my Marantz/Oppo combo. Perhaps the salesmen just did a good job on me, but I like the Oppo's combination of the versatility, the quality DAC, and the polish of the unit. I will be listening to music in multiple formats and watching video, and want something that can handle all the digital and disc-based media I can throw at, and want to use something that will maximize the quality of that media. I'll be hooking a Sonos Connect and an HTPC (well, really, just my PC with a large cache of digital media stored on it) up and will run it through the DAC, will run my cable box through the unit via the HDMI in, and will use both the RCA outs to the AVR with the 5.1 setup and the HDMI outs (possibly direct to the TV for video). I also like the Roku stick compatibility. My worry is that I am unsure I can get the same benefits in more discrete/separate packaging for the same price (which is also the reason I opted for an AVR rather than separates). However, I am very open to change, as I am a novice here, and I worry that I'm not making the most efficient use of the money.


Edited by symblized, September 23 2013 - 07:53 PM.


#4 of 19 gene c

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Posted September 23 2013 - 07:54 PM

As others have said in the past, any receiver will power any set of speakers. But for how long. And even though they may be rated 4 ohm those speakers may drop under 3 ohms occasionally. The source material, how loud you play and how the receiver is setup will also determine if it will eventually go into self-protect mode.

 

I used a Marantz 5005 with 4 ohm Polk LSi's for a while but recently changed to a 7005 receiver. I still watch for heat buildup. A separate amp is better for 4 ohm speakers. I'm still considering it.

 

Yes, an OPPO is a great machine. I've had a few of the 83 and 83SE models. The SE models (like the 105) do have great analog sections but in using them you will also lose the processing features of the receiver. No bass management, no room correction, etc. I use hdmi for my surround sound and analog for my two channel. I currently have a Marantz 7006 BR player and while it's not quite a 105 I don't feel like I'm missing out on too much.

 

$1100 for a player and $650 for an amp/receiver just seems a little backwards. But we all have our own prioreties. Yours might be different then mine.


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#5 of 19 symblized

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Posted September 23 2013 - 08:19 PM

Thanks Gene, that gives me a lot to chew on. I'll look into 4 ohm receivers a bit, and think about how I might be able to get more receiver and strong functionality/performance at that price point without breaking the bank on the disc player... maybe an Oppo 103 is in my future instead of a 105, and I can hold off on the DAC for now. Any other thoughts from you or anyone else? I'm open!


Edited by symblized, September 23 2013 - 08:25 PM.


#6 of 19 gene c

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Posted September 23 2013 - 08:41 PM

Some receivers that aren't certified for 4 ohm use can still drive them. I guess certification must cost more or something. And many receivers that are certified for 4 ohm have just added a 4 ohm switch, either a physical switch on the back or a setting in the menu, that simply reduces the power output to a safe level. Not a very good thing in my opinion. What you should look for is a high-current receiver, certified or otherwise. Harman kardon used to make receivers that could power almost anything, and none of them weren't crtified for 4 ohm. They just didn't bother with it. I'm sure this just added to your confusion but a strong amp section is what you should look for. Those are usually found in the higher priced receivers not the entry and mid-level models.

 

I'm currently drooling over the Yamaha 3030 receiver. It has Sabre DACS built in. And multi-channel analog inputs are quickly disappearing from receivers. Everything will be HDMI or streamed eventually leaving old-timers like me longing for the good ol' days. Time for bed. Good night.


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#7 of 19 schan1269

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Posted September 23 2013 - 09:42 PM

The only AVR to buy for constant 4ohm use under $1000(msrp) are Onkyo and Yamaha.

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#8 of 19 symblized

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Posted September 24 2013 - 05:55 AM

First update: I called MartinLogan this morning and spoke with a couple of folks who indicated that a Marantz receiver would be fine to drive the Motion series. However, I'm still considering switching to the Oppo-103 and spending the rest of the money on something else like a universal remote and an entry level DAC that I can use just for music. Using the analog outs on the Oppo-105 would override much of the feature set of the receiver.



#9 of 19 Type A

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Posted September 24 2013 - 08:07 AM

Thats strange ML would say that.  Their LX-16 bookshelf speakers made an Emotiva amp beg for mercy, no small feat considering its specs.  I like my stuff pretty loud tho.


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#10 of 19 symblized

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Posted September 25 2013 - 08:13 AM

Update: I'm swapping out the Marantz SR6007 for a Pioneer Elite SC67 I found for sale for $849, already swapped out the Oppo BDP-105 for the BDP-103, and am returning the Sonos that I bought since the Roku Stick connected to the 103 will handle all the streaming I need and I'll use a combo of mobile and computer apps to stream all the digital music on my hard drive (plus Mog) to the Pioneer via AirPlay. With the money I've saved overall, I'll also be able to sell the ML 700 sub (I got it for a dirt cheap $425 compared to the $700 list) and buying an HSU sub for about $549+SH. In the end, I'll even come out a couple hundred bucks ahead, with more flexibility and better sound.



#11 of 19 schan1269

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Posted September 25 2013 - 08:27 AM

Here's to the early death of your Elite...

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#12 of 19 schan1269

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Posted September 25 2013 - 08:31 AM

And your price suggests an online purchase. Have fun with no warranty.

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#13 of 19 symblized

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Posted September 25 2013 - 10:47 AM

Here's to the early death of your Elite...

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And your price suggests an online purchase. Have fun with no warranty.

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Not a fan of the Pioneer I'm guessing. Not an online purchase: I'm buying it from a Magnolia at a fire sale price. Full warranty.



#14 of 19 schan1269

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Posted September 25 2013 - 10:53 AM

I "am" a fan of Pioneer/Elite.

 

Just Class D amps are legendary in their persistence of upchucking on 4ohm loads.

 

And yes, you'll find Class D in car audio. Been there a long time. Still trying to make inroads in home audio. For every "yeah it will work" you find on the net...

 

I'll point you over to the Martin Logan and Magnepan* forums of...

 

"Hey you guys, I bought X Class D amp and it worked great for 6 months..."(and this will be a pair of mono-blocks that cost each, three times what you paid for this one Elite)

 

*Maggie actually has a "for those of you attempting to use Class D" warning FAQ.


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#15 of 19 symblized

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Posted September 25 2013 - 11:33 AM

I "am" a fan of Pioneer/Elite.

 

Just Class D amps are legendary in their persistence of upchucking on 4ohm loads.

 

. . . 

 

Aha. What class is the Marantz' amplification? I can't seem to find any indication on Marantz' Website.

 

Hopefully I won't be needing to crank these speakers too hard in my 13x8 room.


Edited by symblized, September 25 2013 - 11:41 AM.


#16 of 19 schan1269

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Posted September 25 2013 - 12:00 PM

Like I already said...

 

Under $1000, your choices are Yamaha and Onkyo. The only Denon 4ohm rated(and the only one to even try) is the 4520.

 

I doubt the "HDAM" and negative current on Marantz models makes a hill of beans difference. But I'd start at the 700X. At least get one with pre-outs.

 

Now, if you get any AVR with pre-outs...

http://www.amazon.co...rds=onkyo m 282 (not heard anything about the M-5010, besides, the 282 is stronger anyway)

 

Or you could find any slew of older amps out there on the used market...

http://www.ebay.com/...=item3385a5b164 (this amp will be worth $200-$250 till the end of time)

http://www.ebay.com/...=item417733eebe (the noise is probably dust)

http://www.ebay.com/...=item27d7776ce8



#17 of 19 schan1269

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Posted September 25 2013 - 12:16 PM

If you want as "cheap as possible but won't die"...

 

http://www.ebay.com/...=item20d8258283 (there are two of these, pick based on "shipping to you"...)

 

I have one of these. On mine the faceplate "died". Mine ran a pair of Magnepan SMGa for a decade, till I sold the SMGa.

As of now, it is used in my bedroom running a non-powered twin 10" "automotive" subwoofer*. Both 10" are 4ohm. Been doing this for 3 years.

 

If you look at a pic of the back, in has pre-out/main-in. Pull the jumpers and hook up your AVR pre-out to the main. Voila.

 

Edit:

The side benefit to this particular Technics. It is "rear cooled". It has a fan that draws air in from the top. You could sit your new AVR right on top of it, won't bother it at all because of its venting.

 

*What it is pushing...looks wise.

http://www.amazon.co...ds=10" bandpass



#18 of 19 symblized

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Posted September 25 2013 - 06:02 PM

Understood on the "less than $1,000" bit. I was just curious if you knew what class amplification the Marantz had. Pardon my slowness if I'm not making much sense at times. I'm definitely a novice here, albeit one trying to learn.

 

Thanks for the amp links.



#19 of 19 schan1269

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Posted September 25 2013 - 06:22 PM   Best Answer

AVR usually use Class AB. AB "usually" can handle 4ohm loads, but...

 

As the price of an AVR drops...the quality of its power supply goes down. I usually don't recommend using any AVR with 4ohm speakers that doesn't chew at least 600 watts off the wall.

 

The Marantz 6008 pulls 650 off the wall, which means, roughly...530 watts for the audio. Half that, from amp inefficiency, means 265. 265 /7 is 38. That should be enough power...even if it is created with 4ohm resistance. But...it has pre-outs...so you are good.


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