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Loopin in my mind about AVR choice


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#1 of 40 Soundaholic

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Posted September 04 2013 - 08:53 AM

Hi guys,

First off, apologize for yet another "which receiver should i choose" post. But I want to get my home theater experience started on the right foot.

My receiver will be powering Klipsch 82 ii floor standing speakers, and eventually the matching surround counterparts.

I am mainly looking for sound quality for 50/50 music and 3D blu rays. I would like to have the latest in audio video processing such as Dolby Digital, DTS, THX, etc (not sure on all the latest that is out, but must be HD). I know there's alot out there....dolby true HD, THX certified plus........I want the latest in these.

Also, I come from a SQ car audio background so I like to play. I would like the AVR to have preouts for any future power upgrades. I also heard that the pioneer elites are easy to play with.

I am currently looking at a Marantz SR5008 and SR6008, $900 and $1200 respectively. Also looking at the Denon X3000 and X4000, $900 and $1300 respectively. I have also came across used floor models of the Pioneer Elite SC-65 for $860 and SC-63 for $640 at Best Buy. The Pioneers sound like a great deal, even though it's "last years" but my feeling for them got somewhat spoiled after I saw the sales guy put it down somewhat hard. I like to be more delicate with my equipment.....but they do come with 2 year manufacturers warranty. Also heard that they are easy to play with and video upscaling is superb. Could be a selling point for me.

But, I have also been looking at separates from Outlaw, which have very reputable reviews of their receiver and amp combo. Same goes to Emotiva...Again, I would like to have the latest in audio video processing..

My local dealer is offering Integra amps and receivers for a discounted price on the floor models. I thought they sounded really good, especially since that's what was powering the Klipsch speakers that I bought. I just don't know a whole lot about this company.

I know all about the warm and musical sounding receivers. I have read all the reviews and everybody says they are all awesome.

If somebody could shed some light and share some technical detail on what I would be missing vs the others then you would be super awesome!!!!

Have a great day!!

Edited by Soundaholic, September 04 2013 - 09:12 AM.


#2 of 40 schan1269

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Posted September 04 2013 - 09:35 AM

Integra is Onkyo's "installer" brand. You can't buy them online, just like you can't buy Elite online.

 

And you "included" THX as a want, but didn't include any Onkyo? (But, by default you included Integra).

 

Overview of Onkyo vs "why to buy an Integra" (again...for however many times this has been said)...

 

3yr warranty vs 2.

Soft feel remote vs hard plastic. (this one has changed somewhat. I ran into a 40.(something) the other day that had hard plastic)

12v is more configurable.

OSD has color options.

You get to talk to the store you bought it from if you run into a problem, instead of going straight into 1-800 "you're on hold for the next available agent".

 

Higher resale in 3-5 years. When you have trouble getting somebody to buy your Onkyo NR929 for $400, people will beat down your door trying to get to your $700 Integra 60.5.

 

And as you "go up" the line there are more variances. But yes, the NR929 and 60.5 are related.



#3 of 40 Soundaholic

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Posted September 04 2013 - 10:04 AM

I don't want an onkyo. Ive had problems with two onkyos, one being the nr5007 where the price for repair was as much as a well budget receiver. That's why it wasn't mentioned in the first place. And, now knowing that integra is related to onkyo, I probably won't be going with them.

How do my wants fair up to my other choices? Anyone?

Ty.

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#4 of 40 schan1269

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Posted September 04 2013 - 10:09 AM

Your loss, but Onkyo customer service/support is a rotten apples to filet mignon comparison with Integra. Ask anybody here.

 

Have you asked this Integra dealer if he'll take that NR5007 on trade?

 

Around here, being Chicago...

 

"Hey I have a dead NR5007, I want to buy this (pick one) Integra"(won't even have to be an Integra)

 

"Sure sir, considering we'll have to repair it, we can give you X dollars for it."

 

That dealer will send it off to a repair shop, it will get repaired, then show up at Accessories4Less in about 2 months.



#5 of 40 Soundaholic

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Posted September 04 2013 - 10:26 AM

Considering I had two onkyos fail on me, what makes you think I will go with them again? Lol.. I cannot trade the nr5007 as I am not the true owner of it. That's why it wasn't mentioned in the original post.....but everything that was relevant to me was.....

So are you telling me i should get an onkyo just because of their customer support and ignore everything else? Or the i tegra? Based off what? I don't get your reply. See the "I am mainly looking for..." paragraph.

Edited by Soundaholic, September 04 2013 - 10:34 AM.


#6 of 40 schan1269

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Posted September 04 2013 - 10:36 AM

No, I'm saying you should consider an Integra, as owning an Integra is not the same thing as buying an Onkyo off Amazon.

 

But, I've played with the E series Denon, except for their penchant for upchucking their innards on anything close to 6ohms, they are fine.

Marantz is nothing more than a "Denon in fancier clothes".(Once the "Cyclops look" Marantz hit the used market at "half MSRP" I'll probably pick one up)

 

The "knock" in Elite is the class D amp. Those should go nowhere near anything under 8 ohm. They'll puke. Yes your Klipsch say 8ohm, and they are freakishly efficient(meaning, in reality, you have probably never heard them on more than 30 watts).

 

Can you tell the difference in class D?

 

Yamaha Aventage and Onkyo/Integra are the only AVR that will work, consistently, on <6ohm.



#7 of 40 Soundaholic

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Posted September 04 2013 - 10:47 AM

Ok...now it sounds like I'm getting somewhere. So the klipsch say they are 8 ohm but really there not? Or they vary? So I need an avr that will be more reliable when we get to <8 ohms? Which would be the integra. So really, as far as my list goes and my speakers, it should be integra, denon, and lastly pioneer.

Honestly haven't heard the pioneer class d amps so wouldn't be able to tell you of any differences I hear. My selling point was their reputation in video upscaling. But I wouldn't want my receiver to ever vomit its' insides....

 

How good are integras as far as video processing?


Edited by Soundaholic, September 04 2013 - 10:49 AM.


#8 of 40 schan1269

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Posted September 04 2013 - 10:58 AM

All speakers "vary" in ohm load. I'm sure, somewhere, Klipsch has an ohm graph for the RF82. Or, you "could" create your own...(takes sine sweeps and measuring equipment)

 

Onkyo/Integra uses Marvell Qdeo, same thing Oppo uses. They aren't the only ones using Qdeo. 



#9 of 40 schan1269

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Posted September 04 2013 - 11:08 AM

I also meant I've played with the X, not the E, Denons.

 

The X4000 is formidable in its features. The 4520 is still worth it, but it is a bunch of greenbacks more.



#10 of 40 gene c

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Posted September 04 2013 - 02:20 PM

If you like to play with your receiver then Pioneer is hard to beat. Advanced MCACC has 6 eq presets and numeros audio and video adjustments. I had an SC-27 and loved it. Elites are also the best looking imo. But again, my opinion.

 

I currently have one those cyclops Marantz 7005's and it's a capable receiver (and matches my other Marantz gear) but it doesn't live up to all the hoopla (the magazines seem to love it). I actually liked the 6005 I had before it a little better. The 7008 does look interesting, however. Marantz avr's are very easy to use.

 

I've always found Denon receivers to be a pain to live with. Very difficult for me to setup and operate. Solid performers but crack open a bottle of Excedrin first.

 

I've also had an Integra 70.2 and and only fault was the re-deigned remote and no Pure Analog which Onkyo's apparently have (???). Should have kept that one too. Knobs, buttons, look and feel didn't didn't seem like a high-end product but not a big issue. I would buy an Integra but not an Onkyo. Can't explain why so dont ask.

 

Yamaha is the one consumer level receiver I havent had yet but would love to try one.

 

Pioneer's and Yamaha's only allow a single crossover settng for all speaker groups. others allow you to set them seperately.

 

Also consider the Anthem MRX-500 and even the Sherbourn SR-120 ($459, down from $1999). Sherbourn is owned by Emotiva and they're selling outtheir product ilne. Very tempting but read the manual.

 

http://www.sherbourn...heater-receiver

 

http://cdn.shopify.c...0_manual_v2.pdf


Edited by gene c, September 04 2013 - 02:25 PM.

"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#11 of 40 Soundaholic

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Posted September 04 2013 - 03:21 PM

$459 down from $1999? What's with the drastic price difference?

 

If you like to play with your receiver then Pioneer is hard to beat. Advanced MCACC has 6 eq presets and numeros audio and video adjustments. I had an SC-27 and loved it. Elites are also the best looking imo. But again, my opinion.

 

I currently have one those cyclops Marantz 7005's and it's a capable receiver (and matches my other Marantz gear) but it doesn't live up to all the hoopla (the magazines seem to love it). I actually liked the 6005 I had before it a little better. The 7008 does look interesting, however. Marantz avr's are very easy to use.

 

I've always found Denon receivers to be a pain to live with. Very difficult for me to setup and operate. Solid performers but crack open a bottle of Excedrin first.

 

I've also had an Integra 70.2 and and only fault was the re-deigned remote and no Pure Analog which Onkyo's apparently have (???). Should have kept that one too. Knobs, buttons, look and feel didn't didn't seem like a high-end product but not a big issue. I would buy an Integra but not an Onkyo. Can't explain why so dont ask.

 

Yamaha is the one consumer level receiver I havent had yet but would love to try one.

 

Pioneer's and Yamaha's only allow a single crossover settng for all speaker groups. others allow you to set them seperately.

 

Also consider the Anthem MRX-500 and even the Sherbourn SR-120 ($459, down from $1999). Sherbourn is owned by Emotiva and they're selling outtheir product ilne. Very tempting but read the manual.

 

http://www.sherbourn...heater-receiver

 

http://cdn.shopify.c...0_manual_v2.pdf



#12 of 40 schan1269

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Posted September 04 2013 - 03:26 PM

The SR-120 is a dinosaur.

 

No 3D(it is HDMI 1.3. Which the NR5007 was 1.3 anyway)

And uses a Faroudja scaler. (which DCDi was state of the art...in, what, 2007?)

 

The NR5007 you were using is a joy to use compared to that thing.

 

But, if you don't need 3D and if you really don't need the scaling...sure...it does sound good.



#13 of 40 gene c

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Posted September 04 2013 - 03:34 PM

Yea, maybe i should have read the manual first! I have no need for 3D or video processing in a receiver but sometimes I forget that others do.

 

I like Marantz receivers, I've bought three in the last year, but I think they're just a bit over-priced compared to Onkyo, Denon, etc. But they are very easy to operate.

 

I would think a Pioneer Elite would be the best option for him. I like them as much as Marantz but I might be the only one who does.


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#14 of 40 Soundaholic

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Posted September 04 2013 - 04:10 PM

I would like to have straight 3D support, so I guess this is ruled out.

 

The NR5007 was awesome, until it crapped out, then got fixed, now having problems with it again. It was my parents, and I don't live there anymore. It was a sweet upgrade from the I believe Onkyo 807 that they had. Only used it for TV and movies.

 

Do class D amps end up lacking in the high end when it comes to music for my klipsch speakers? If so, I think I will be narrowing down to the Integra amps like you previously suggested..

The SR-120 is a dinosaur.

 

No 3D(it is HDMI 1.3. Which the NR5007 was 1.3 anyway)

And uses a Faroudja scaler. (which DCDi was state of the art...in, what, 2007?)

 

The NR5007 you were using is a joy to use compared to that thing.

 

But, if you don't need 3D and if you really don't need the scaling...sure...it does sound good.



#15 of 40 Type A

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Posted September 04 2013 - 04:18 PM

Pioneer's and Yamaha's only allow a single crossover settng for all speaker groups. others allow you to set them seperately.

 

 

This is the second time youve said this about Yamaha.  I corrected you the first time and either you missed it or ignored it and Im just not understanding what you mean by "speaker groups."   Are you saying someone might want to adjust the crossover of their front left channel differently then their front right channel? Or a different crossover for their left surround compared to their right surround?   If thats the case then you are correct, the Yamaha wont do that.  However my Yamaha 3010 allows for separate manual crossover settings for the front left and right, center, and surrounds with the front left and right being the same and the surrounds being the same.   Height channels, and affik rear channels also,  are set as full range and the crossover is not adjustable for those channels.  Please clarify what you mean by this statement.   By the way Yamaha goes way beyond preset EQ's. Yahama has a full manual adjustable parametric EQ for each individual channel, adjustable gain from +5.5 dB to -20dB and in frequency from 31.3 Hz to 16 kHz.  


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Oppo BDP93 & Darbee DVP 5000

*My Home Theater Photo Journal*

#16 of 40 gene c

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Posted September 04 2013 - 04:23 PM

$459 down from $1999? What's with the drastic price difference?

 

They're just closing out the old Sherbourn products which were probably over-priced in the firs place.


Edited by gene c, September 04 2013 - 04:28 PM.

"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#17 of 40 gene c

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Posted September 04 2013 - 04:30 PM

This is the second time youve said this about Yamaha.  I corrected you the first time and either you missed it or Im not understanding what you mean by "speaker groups."   Are you saying someone might want to adjust the crossover of their front left channel differently then their front right channel? Or a different crossover for their left surround compared to their right surround?   My Yamaha 3010 allows for separate manual crossover settings for the front left and right, center, and surrounds with the front left and right being the same and the surrounds being the same.   Height channels, and affik rear channels also,  are set as full range and the crossover is not adjustable for those channels.  Please clarify what you mean by this statement.   By the way Yamaha goes way beyond preset EQ's. Yahama has a full manual adjustable parametric EQ for each individual channel, adjustable gain from +5.5 dB to -20dB and in frequency from 31.3 Hz to 16 kHz.  

 

Opps! Now I remember! And it's probably not the second time I said it, just the second time you caught me! It's now tatoo'd on my forhead so it won't happen again (I hope).


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#18 of 40 schan1269

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Posted September 04 2013 - 04:40 PM

The vast majority of Yamaha are single crossover. In this guys "realm"....the A30X0, at least, have multiple crossovers. Not all of the Aventage do. And none of the V series do.



#19 of 40 Type A

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Posted September 04 2013 - 05:07 PM

Ah ok that makes more sense then. No worries Gene, you were right and wrong all at the same time so Im pretty sure they offset themselves :D
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Hsu VTF-2 MK3 (2) & MBM-12 MK2 (2)

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Oppo BDP93 & Darbee DVP 5000

*My Home Theater Photo Journal*

#20 of 40 gene c

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Posted September 04 2013 - 05:12 PM

Well that might explain at least some of my confusion and in-accurate statements. I really do need to bone up on Yamaha receivers.

 

New receivers haven't really offered anything new that I've been interested in for the last few years. I'm not into 3D or internet streaming or downloading yet so I haven't had any reason to upgrade to a newer receiver, just another one (and another, and another and...).  

 

It looks like the Sherbourn SR-120 is no longer available.


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 





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