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1776 playing in Santa Monica tomorrow

Sony Pictures

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#61 of 131 OFFLINE   JohnMor

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Posted July 06 2013 - 01:40 PM

Twilight Time has no interest in releasing a Blu with only the DVD cut. They are wise and know that fans demand the "kitchen sink" version alongside it.

This is what Peter Hunt wants, this is what Grover Crisp wants, and if nobody else is willing to release it, we know Twilight Time will do so, and we are so grateful to know this option exists.

But Sony has to let Grover do his work before any of this happens.

I think if someone with Facebook savvy starts a petition page, they can't return that unopened...

 

Sorry, but I am a lifelong fan of this film and would MUCH rather see the dvd version come to blu ray than wait for the kitchen sink version that may never happen.  Oh well. 



#62 of 131 OFFLINE   Moe Dickstein

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Posted July 06 2013 - 02:47 PM

You are about the only one John.

I'd recommend downloading the great looking HD version from iTunes in your situation
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#63 of 131 OFFLINE   Steve Tannehill

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Posted July 06 2013 - 02:50 PM

You are about the only one John.
I'd recommend downloading the great looking HD version from iTunes in your situation


The same HD version is also available via Vudu.

#64 of 131 OFFLINE   JohnMor

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Posted July 06 2013 - 05:28 PM

You are about the only one John.

 

 

Somehow I doubt that's totally true, or no one would have shown up at the Aero since it wasn't the complete version.  I could understand if it was the "theatrical" version, but the "Restored Director's Cut" plays quite well.  If we have to choose between that and nothing, I don't get why people would prefer nothing.



#65 of 131 OFFLINE   Moe Dickstein

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Posted July 06 2013 - 06:20 PM

The issue is that there is a very large, vocal and militant group of fans who have been boycotting the DVD for over a decade now. Nobody wants to go through that again.

And interestingly, 3/4 of the Aero audience had never seen the film before...
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#66 of 131 OFFLINE   JohnMor

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Posted July 06 2013 - 08:51 PM

I have no doubt they're vocal and militant, but I doubt they're all that large anymore outside of HTF.  I bet the majority of the 3/4 of the Aero audience that had never seen it before would happily buy a blu of that cut.  I think the vast majority of the ones boycotting the dvd are those who had the laserdisc version.  Like the Aero audience, the average fan of the film probably has not seen that version at this late stage of the game.  I bet the average fan of the film would rather have the dvd version than nothing just to send a "message" to Sony.  I think we forget that the average fan and buyer out in the real world is NOT like us here on HTF.

 

Anyway, it appears to be a moot point, so that vocal, militant group should be very happy that everybody's getting nothing.  Sigh.

 


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#67 of 131 OFFLINE   Moe Dickstein

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Posted July 06 2013 - 11:10 PM

Well, the director also wants to put the longer version out too alongside his cut. Since you can get that cut in HD, the Blu needs more of a draw, something new to really stand out, and there's so much we can do with it I would for sure want to do it right or not at all.
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#68 of 131 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted July 06 2013 - 11:20 PM

I would for sure want to do it right or not at all. 

 

I think most everyone feels that way.

 

Based on the amount of anger that surfaced on this

forum when the DVD was released (as great as that DVD was), 

I think there is much caution being exercised this time 'round

not to do a half-baked job on a Blu-ray release.  We have the

support from within the studio, but unfortunately the studio 

itself is the reason for the blockade.


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#69 of 131 OFFLINE   Garysb

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Posted July 07 2013 - 12:48 AM

Here is the reprise of the Lees of Old Virginia from the laser disc, a scene not in the director's cut, that someone posted on youtube.

 


Edited by Garysb, July 07 2013 - 02:06 AM.


#70 of 131 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted July 07 2013 - 01:04 AM

One of my favorite excised scenes.  Was surprised that

didn't even make it back into the DVD Special Edition

 

There is also an extended portion of "Piddle Twiddle" that was

not put back into that same DVD release....

 

 

(You can see the cut in at :43 and 1:11 if I am correct)

 

...in addition to a few other minor cuts.

 

You know, we are in a very fortunate position that the film's

director is totally onboard to putting all this stuff back into a

Blu-ray release.  All we need is Sony's (the company) support.


 

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#71 of 131 OFFLINE   Matt Hough

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Posted July 07 2013 - 04:23 AM

I'm on record several times as being very firm in my wish for the restoration of the entire "Piddle, Twiddle, and Resolve." That missing verse gives the song heft; the cut version seems too short to me (of course, maybe that's because I not only have watched the laser numerous times but have done the show on stage in three different productions).

 

I love "The Lees of Old Virginia" reprise but as the song is so jaunty and ends in such an exhilarating way in the film as it now is, the reprise isn't as vital to me as "Piddle, Twiddle" where the excised material comes from the guts of the song.


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#72 of 131 OFFLINE   jim_falconer

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Posted July 07 2013 - 04:31 AM

I watched the PSE laserdisc this past 4th of July, and could not imagine watching the film ever again, without all the missing DVD pieces back in place.  Plus, if we do get the 'kitchen sink' treatment on BD, I would hope they would incorporate the Laser's audio, and not the inferior one from the DVD.  As Ronald has stated, we should all be grateful that Peter Hunt is on board with trying to release that version one day.



#73 of 131 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted July 07 2013 - 04:32 AM

The single scene that seems to horrify most people, including

the director, is where Thomas Jefferson is smiling, gazing at

a young girl in the courtyard.

 

Getting that scene put back into the film has always brought

up arguments about it being too "creepy," as if Jefferson is

being portrayed as a pedephile.

 

Now, obviously, that was not the intent of the filmmaker when

capturing that scene.  I would guess it was simply showing

Jefferson's kindness towards children.

 

It's a scene I would want put back into the film (it was in the

laserdisc edition), but I hear that is one sequence that may

have to be fought for its inclusion. 


 

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#74 of 131 OFFLINE   David Weicker

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Posted July 07 2013 - 06:09 AM

I'm curious. When did Mr. Hunt do an about face about the cut of this film?

I recall he was quite vocal and militant about the DVD cut being the correct and only version we should be allowed to see.

Now maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but it seemed to me he was in the 'Them' camp when we were ('Us') were upset about the DVD.

David

#75 of 131 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted July 07 2013 - 06:35 AM

I can't speak directly for Mr. Hunt.

 

Others may be able to do so.

 

I can only tell you, based on conversations I have had

with persons close to him, that he is up to including just

about everything that was on that laserdisc release outside

of the overture and (possibly) the Jefferson scene described

in my post above.

 

You can bet on more confirmed updates on this.


 

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#76 of 131 OFFLINE   Charles Smith

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Posted July 07 2013 - 06:39 AM

The Jefferson window scene never bothered me or struck me as weird in the least, even though there's no other moment quite like it.  I always saw it as totally innocent, and I wonder if so many people pick up on a possible "pedophilia" moment due to our intense awareness of that problem today, as opposed to a few decades ago.



#77 of 131 OFFLINE   Charles Smith

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Posted July 07 2013 - 06:46 AM

From my letter to Sony:

 

As one of the purest translations of a hit Broadway musical ever filmed, featuring many of its original cast and creators, “1776” is a priceless document, and a “kitchen sink” version incorporating all available footage represents a unique opportunity in the history of both theater and film.

 

As a person who just happens to love stage musicals as much as I love film, I feel particularly strongly re this point.



#78 of 131 OFFLINE   JohnMor

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Posted July 07 2013 - 10:37 AM

I'm curious. When did Mr. Hunt do an about face about the cut of this film?

I recall he was quite vocal and militant about the DVD cut being the correct and only version we should be allowed to see.

Now maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but it seemed to me he was in the 'Them' camp when we were ('Us') were upset about the DVD.

David

 

Yes, he did several interviews at the time, saying it was his preferred version.  But, of course, a filmmaker has a right to change his mind.
 

T R Wilkinson did shed some light on some of his choices for the "Restored Director's Cut" in a separate thread in 2002:

 

Joe - In speaking with Peter Hunt, one of the reasons for not reinstating the lamplighter and Franklin in the Market was the difficulty in getting around the dissolve that was inserted for the theatrical cut. You inserted a shot of the window to cover this, but apparantly Hunt did not want to do this and instead left the bit out.

As to Lees, he tells me that people are sick of him coming back at this point, and the drive is to get to the first day in congress as fast as possible.

There was never any talk of not including Firewagon,

And the underscoring were elsments that he was unhappy with from day one, being the work of Warner's crony Ray Heindorf, he remarks that they sound like "fake Korngold" and particularly ruin the final scene with John and Abagail.

John - knowing the situation, I would probably hold a grudge too if I were Joe!

Have you seen the new DVD yet, before saying you think the LD the best version? Personally, on the first viewing the changes were a lot to take in, but now I think that due to the quality and scoring changes, the DVD version holds a slight edge, but I would never part with the LD for the extra material it contains.

- T R Wilkinson

         


 



#79 of 131 OFFLINE   Moe Dickstein

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Posted July 07 2013 - 10:59 AM

1. Both of those Youtubes were edited and put up by me, so you're welcome lol.

 

2. Peter Hunt feels that the cut on the DVD cut is the best and definitive cut, that has not changed. When the first restoration was undertaken in 2001/2, the goal was to reconstruct the film on film and for theatrical viewing the way it should have gone out in 1972. It was recut to match the locked cut that Mr. Hunt left with the studio when he went off to his Honeymoon. The theatrical version is a result of Jack Warner's further edits. The change with the Blu-Ray is that in addition to the Director's cut, there will be a version with much material added that is intended FOR HOME VIEWING. Mr. Hunt feels that the picture shouldn't be any longer when you can't stop it, but is all for a "kitchen sink" version for the home.

 

3. I have spent extensive time with the original shooting script with all the continuity shots, so I know every camera setup that was made. The Jefferson and children scene is not even in the script proper (and was no part of the Broadway show), it is in a small flap of paper inserted into the script because it was basically something that was tried out as an experiment that everyone agreed didn't work. That moment interrupts the flow of the scene that it is a part of and there is no good way to cut it in, I have tried. 

 

4. The other things that will not be re-inserted are the intermission and accompanying overture and entr'acte. These were never intended (the play on Broadway was without intermission) and were created out of the orchestral tracks for the songs by the producer of the Laserdisc who felt the film should have an intermission. It should not. Everything else footage wise will go back in. There are some music cues that will remain out, and we have found a way to replace one removed cue with more proper music so that new selection will go in (under Adams looking for Franklin)

 

5. The Director's cut, many fans seem to forget, has new material that is NOT on the laserdisc. In addition to all the added scenes being in matching quality for the first time, you have the Lyman Hall aside in color, and another scene with McNair after Cool Men that was never seen before. 

 

6. The new Blu-Ray version is planned to include several more sections of dialogue and other moments that have never been seen outside the cutting room of the film. These are things that I have found in the cutting script and the plan is to order the film from the vault and check it out for inclusion in the longer cut. So while you won't get Jefferson and the kids back in, there will be more new stuff that will more than balance it. The Jefferson and kids may show up as deleted scenes outside any cut, I am not sure how that is going to be dealt with as we didn't get that far when we worked on it in 2011. 

 

7. There are also plans to record a new commentary with Mr. Hunt and some of the cast depending on availability and the old commentary will be included as well. There are also other materials that might be created but I'm not going to get too deep into that. Suffice to say, the Blu would be a definitive resource for the film and it's history and incarnations, and would satisfy all but the most stubborn and obstinate fans, but that's ok because those folks are obnoxious and disliked ;)

 

8. And the audio - Mr. Hunt spent over a month in the stages remixing the sound to 5.1 from the original stems. Having heard this mix in the theater the other day, it is a TREMENDOUS improvement over the laserdisc. I wonder if the issue isn't that again, the mix was made for theaters and not home theaters, but the sound will be based on what you hear on the DVD in any new version, as it is supervised and approved by the Director unlike the laserdisc mix which was not.


Edited by Moe Dickstein, July 07 2013 - 11:11 AM.

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#80 of 131 OFFLINE   Jack P

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Posted July 07 2013 - 11:34 AM

If it doesn't restore the LD cut as I have experienced it every year and in every viewing for the last 22 years (as I did again on July 4) it isn't a "kitchen sink" version I'd watch more than once as a curiosity.

 

I have come to enjoy the Overture/Entr'acte as something that elevates the film to the last of the great roadshow style musicals in my viewing experience and it also provided a much needed natural break point in my recent viewing with family.     If  Hunt is truly of the belief that a "kitchen sink" version should be for the home, he shouldn't have any objection to leaving that in or the scene of Jefferson with the girl over the Paine quote.     Why should it matter to him if this is in a kitchen sink cut or not?

 

Likewise, if the underscore for the Abigal/John conversation prior to "Compliments" remains out, that scene too remains ruined from my standpoint.    The moment of the underscore and when John turns and sees her after she says, "There you have me, John, you are pigheaded" was always a beautifully effective moment.

 

I would much rather continue to watch Dr. Hall and Mr. Rodney in B/W for a few seconds then see a version of the film with changes that would be more annoying from my viewing standpoint.     The only concession I'd make for a "kitchen sink" version as is being described in this thread is that I would likely buy it from an archival standpoint as I felt I reluctantly had to do with the compromised Blu-Ray release of "Major Dundee" (so I could rip the Amfitheatrof score to CD) but my viewing copy every July 4 will remain the version that still suits me fine after all these years and that's the LD cut (transferred to DVD for long-term safety).

 

If it's somehow obnoxious to simply appreciate that version of the film which for so many like me was the greatest thrill I ever experienced after seeing a new home video release of a favorite title, then I'll plead guilty since the whole release of the DVD a decade ago brought out a lot more obnoxious and dislikable behavior on the part of certain other parties who shall remain nameless.


Edited by Jack P, July 07 2013 - 11:43 AM.






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