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film grain


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170 replies to this topic

#1 of 171 jimmyjet

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Posted June 10 2013 - 09:28 AM

i was reading a blu-ray review.  the following is a comment from it. 

 

A fine veneer of grain lends each episode a filmic quality. (this was said in a positive note)

 

this statement reminds me of the audiophiles talking about lps having more of a pure sound.

 

i guess some people like grain in their viewing, like some people prefer pops, cracks, and hisses in their listening.

 

i sure dont get it.  real life has no grain, and no pops, cracks and hisses.

 

i can understand tolerating grain, to keep from losing other qualities about the film.  but to actually prefer seeing it there ?????

 

i dont want it to look like a movie theatre.  i prefer it to be as real-life as possible.


Edited by jimmyjet, June 10 2013 - 09:30 AM.


#2 of 171 revgen

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Posted June 10 2013 - 09:33 AM

I don't watch a film to see "real life". I watch to escape "real life" unless it's a documentary.


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#3 of 171 FoxyMulder

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Posted June 10 2013 - 09:43 AM

i was reading a blu-ray review.  the following is a comment from it. 

 

A fine veneer of grain lends each episode a filmic quality. (this was said in a positive note)

 

this statement reminds me of the audiophiles talking about lps having more of a pure sound.

 

i guess some people like grain in their viewing, like some people prefer pops, cracks, and pops and hisses to film grain, 

 

i sure dont get it.  real life has no grain, and no pops, cracks and hisses.

 

i can understand tolerating grain, to keep from losing other qualities about the film.  but to actually prefer seeing it there ?????

 

i dont want it to look like a movie theatre.  i prefer it to be as real-life as possible.

 

You know my opinion on this, film grain needs to be retained, if it's a newer digital shot film then i actually prefer them to add a little film grain otherwise it looks wrong to me, you cannot compare LP's and hiss and crackle, if it's shot on film then its a natural part of the image, you can't say that about LP's and pops and hisses.  

 

Jimmy i showed you examples of what happens when DNR is used and yet you still won't accept film grain, i guess i just don't understand your stance on this, my recommendation though is to just stick to DVD.

 

Movies are an escape for many from real life, i don't want that "looking out of a window" scenario for 2D movies, i suggest you get into 3D, you might like it, watch the degrained Jurassic Park and it might be more to your taste, maybe Predator: Ultimate Hunter Edition, to me film grain is never an issue, you want DNR then use the controls on your television or indeed blu ray player, one is called noise reduction, read the instruction manual for it's use but i think film grain shouldn't be seen as bad.


Edited by FoxyMulder, June 10 2013 - 09:47 AM.

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#4 of 171 lukejosephchung

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Posted June 10 2013 - 09:44 AM

i was reading a blu-ray review.  the following is a comment from it. 

 

A fine veneer of grain lends each episode a filmic quality. (this was said in a positive note)

 

this statement reminds me of the audiophiles talking about lps having more of a pure sound.

 

i guess some people like grain in their viewing, like some people prefer pops, cracks, and hisses in their listening.

 

i sure dont get it.  real life has no grain, and no pops, cracks and hisses.

 

i can understand tolerating grain, to keep from losing other qualities about the film.  but to actually prefer seeing it there ?????

 

i dont want it to look like a movie theatre.  i prefer it to be as real-life as possible.

In case you've forgotten the mission of this Forum, it's to recreate the experience of a movie theater as faithfully as possible...most classic films are shot in analog-based celluloid, not digital, which inherently doesn't HAVE grain...you're so conditioned to watching grain-free digital video that you aren't appreciating that film grain on older titles is part of the experience of seeing an older movie. Using today's technology, it's simply not possible to remove that grain without losing the fine detail of the original format...it's like removing the hiss from analog magnetic tape...sure, you can do it, but you also lose some of the fine detail of the recording that makes it unique-sounding.


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#5 of 171 TravisR

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Posted June 10 2013 - 09:46 AM

I think it's fair to say that the majority of folks here at HTF are looking for Blu-ray to come as close to what they would have seen in a movie theater as possible. In the case of movies- which are overwhelmingly shot on film- that means that there should be some grain because grain is inherent to film.



#6 of 171 jimmyjet

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Posted June 10 2013 - 09:58 AM

hi foxy,

 

why does dvd or blu-ray have anything to do with film grain ??

 

the grain is on the film, not on the disk containing the transfer.

 

you are correct though in that i would prefer to lose some detail to have a grain-free picture.

 

but i would be losing some detail, irregardless of dvd or blu-ray.

 

you said that you dont understand my stance ?  when i am watching the show, both dvd and blu-ray have pretty good clarity, already (assuming the transfer was done correctly).

 

so while i can usually tell the difference between the two, it does not affect my viewing of the show at the time, cuz i am only watching one thing.

 

on the other hand, the constant buzzing of the grain is a detriment to my viewing, irregardless of whether i am watching a dvd or blu-ray.

 

i havent noticed more grain on blu-ray than on dvd.



#7 of 171 jimmyjet

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:04 AM

hi travis,

 

your statement may be true.  but i wonder if we went to amazon, if we would get the masses to agree to preferring grain ?

 

i am beginning to see and appreciate the difference between technical reviews that come mostly from purists, and amazon reviews that come from the masses.

 

each has its own merits.  and like in most things in life, understanding the perspective of the person giving his opinion, is helpful in determining its usefulness for one's self.

 

for example, someone on the litb thread posted a blurb about some tv sets on sale.

 

i bought 2 of them.  but i decided not to purchase route 66.

 

there were too many amazoners complaining about the picture quality - enough that no technical review would have saved it, for me.  so i did not bother to even try to look up a technical review.  they may have been just as much down on it as the folks at amazon ?



#8 of 171 lukejosephchung

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:05 AM

For the membership of this Forum, "pretty good" isn't good enough!!! With state-of-the-art consumer equipment, fine detail, sharpness, color and contrast shadings are easily replicated on a home screen, which is why we spend the extra money to use it in the first place...you don't seem to have the trained eye or visual perception to appreciate these things, which is why you notice the grain more than the more finely-presented picture quality!!!


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#9 of 171 FoxyMulder

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:09 AM

hi foxy,

 

why does dvd or blu-ray have anything to do with film grain ??

 

the grain is on the film, not on the disk containing the transfer.

 

you are correct though in that i would prefer to lose some detail to have a grain-free picture.

 

but i would be losing some detail, irregardless of dvd or blu-ray.

 

you said that you dont understand my stance ?  when i am watching the show, both dvd and blu-ray have pretty good clarity, already (assuming the transfer was done correctly).

 

so while i can usually tell the difference between the two, it does not affect my viewing of the show at the time, cuz i am only watching one thing.

 

on the other hand, the constant buzzing of the grain is a detriment to my viewing, irregardless of whether i am watching a dvd or blu-ray.

 

i havent noticed more grain on blu-ray than on dvd.

 

DVD often was filtered, very few escaped this, thus the film grain would be removed to make it easier to encode, unnecessary to do so, i was talking to David Mackenzie who did the encode for the PAL DVD of Spider Baby, he says its unfiltered and i know he tries to retain the film grain even for DVD while the major studio's always take the stance of removing the film grain and filtering detail away for DVD, it doesn't need to be so.

 

So with DVD you might be seeing a tiny amount of film grain mixed in with a lot of noise, not the same thing as proper retained film grain, now as i say above it doesn't have to be this way, DVD can retain grain if the person doing the encode hand tunes it all and does it right.

 

What is the make of your television, i know it's an Insignia but the actual model number, i will check out some settings for you if you can supply those details, i think your sharpness control may be too high, it can make film grain look bad, i told you this on the other thread too.


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

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#10 of 171 jimmyjet

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:18 AM

hi foxy,

 

am i understanding you in that as a rule, more grain is removed from a dvd product than a blu-ray product ?

 

insignia model number NS-32L550A11

 

the worst grain was in butch.  but even that was enjoyable, as an overall experience.

 

so i am not saying that the grain has been intolerable for me - not at all.

 

and very often is not noticeable.  but there will be times on almost all of them, where there is enough "flicker" that it takes away from my viewing experience.



#11 of 171 TravisR

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:19 AM

hi travis,

 

your statement may be true.  but i wonder if we went to amazon, if we would get the masses to agree to preferring grain ?

I really doubt it but I'm not interested in what people on Amazon want to see. And I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other about film grain. I'm just trying to tell why people here and related sites do want to see film grain.



#12 of 171 jimmyjet

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:24 AM

hi robert,

 

are you saying that 480 resolution is really the best that can be done with the older tv shows ?

 

if so, i wont waste any time or money even attempting to get a blu-ray for them.

 

at what approximate year, would tv shows have a better resolution than 480 ?



#13 of 171 jimmyjet

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:29 AM

For the membership of this Forum, "pretty good" isn't good enough!!! With state-of-the-art consumer equipment, fine detail, sharpness, color and contrast shadings are easily replicated on a home screen, which is why we spend the extra money to use it in the first place...you don't seem to have the trained eye or visual perception to appreciate these things, which is why you notice the grain more than the more finely-presented picture quality!!!

 

you are obviously a purist.  but your attitude towards me has been a bit condescending.

 

i could easily rearrange your argument to say that your visual perception is not trained enough to notice the grain.

 

but why not just stick to the truth ?

 

some things are simply more bothersome to some people than to other people.

 

two people could very easily have the same trained eye and visual acuity to notice visual detail.  but one person could have a lot more dislike for something else (in this case, grain) than the other person.



#14 of 171 jimmyjet

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:32 AM

I really doubt it but I'm not interested in what people on Amazon want to see. And I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other about film grain. I'm just trying to tell why people here and related sites do want to see film grain.

 

okay, thanks travis.

 

let me repeat for you so that i can verify what you are saying.

 

most purists (or video enthusiasts) actually prefer grain, because it gives them the feel of how they used to go to the movies ?



#15 of 171 jimmyjet

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:35 AM

In case you've forgotten the mission of this Forum, it's to recreate the experience of a movie theater as faithfully as possible..

 

i was not aware that this forum had that mission. 



#16 of 171 FoxyMulder

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:37 AM

Not true of all older shows, quite a few were shot on film, Star Trek for example, indeed quite a few from the sixties and seventies were shot on film, whether they wiped the film stock is another matter, the BBC stupidly wiped their Doctor Who shows, big mistake.

 

I am looking at the manual for your television, you have it connected via HDMI right. ?  

 

I would also suggest opening the advanced menu and making sure 120hz is set to off and overscan is also set to off when viewing blu ray content, in this menu you will also find the option for noise reduction, that will help you smooth the film grain out, i recommend setting it to off but its there if you want it, also make sure 24p film mode is enabled in this menu, switch adaptive contrast and dynamic contrast to off too.

 

I also suggest setting the picture mode to either standard or theater and getting a cheap calibration disc and working on the brightness, contrast, sharpness and colour, basic calibration will help you a lot, the Disney WOW disc or the new Spears and Munsil 2nd Edition will help you here.


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#17 of 171 TravisR

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:40 AM

most purists (or video enthusiasts) actually prefer grain, because it gives them the feel of how they used to go to the movies ?

Correct. Movies are mostly shot on film (as has been said, even most movies shot digitally today add grain so it will look 'normal' to viewers) and since film inherently has grain, people want to see that grain reflected in a Blu-ray.


Edited by TravisR, June 10 2013 - 10:41 AM.


#18 of 171 ahollis

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:49 AM


some things are simply more bothersome to some people than to other people.


A transfer of a film to Blu-ray, such as the first release of PATTON and THE LONGEST DAY with out the fine grain that is inherent in film stock gives everything a terrible scrubbed look. Fox fixed PATTON last year. Disney is also scrubbing the grain out of their classic animation which while they still get complaints about it, they are given a pass.

I like grain in my movies. To me without is bothersome.
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#19 of 171 jimmyjet

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:49 AM

hi foxy,

 

i probably did make changes to the picture quality, because rather than having any of the standard ones, it is referred to as custom.

 

which makes me think that i fine-tuned it to whatever my eyes liked the best.

 

it currently has brightness 49, contrast 50, color 55, tint 0, sharpness +20



#20 of 171 jimmyjet

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Posted June 10 2013 - 10:58 AM

hi foxy,

 

i went to the advanced menu.

 

i am pretty sure that i never touched this, cuz i havent the foggiest idea of what any of it does.

 

aspect ratio - wide,  overscan - on,  color temperature - cool, noise reduction - low, insignia motion 120hz - low,  backlight 30.

 

there is also an advanced contrast menu that is available from this one, but i did not go there.

 

i am happy to make changes to the tv, but i really dont want to change back and forth every time i switch from dvd to blu-ray ?






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