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A few words about...™ The Fury -- in Blu-ray

Twilight Time A Few Words About

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#201 of 212 JoshZ

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Posted November 25 2013 - 11:30 AM

I would like to hear what De Palma has to say about this, i remember Coppola claiming the cinema prints of Dracula and subsequent DVD versions were all wrong, they then released his version on blu ray, that version got many complaints but i actually think it's very good, 

 

Francis Coppola never actually said that. According to second- and third-hand sources, a representative from Zoetrope allegedly said that. Coppola has never spoken about the Dracula Blu-ray on the record, to my knowledge.

 

I find the claims that every single release of that film, including every theatrical print, were wildly incorrect and nothing at all like what Coppola wanted, and the only accurate representation of the movie was a mysterious answer print hidden way in a warehouse unseen by human eyes until the Blu-ray was released, to be completely ludicrious. But that's another argument and off-topic for this thread. :)


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#202 of 212 JoshZ

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Posted November 25 2013 - 11:37 AM

I think he's basically saying that yes the scene was pushed for the internegative and the prints, but that if De Palma (or whoever else has a hand in such decisions), could have had the scene reflect how it was as shot and on the OCN, they would have done so. 

 

I have no stake in this, personally. I don't know what The Fury looked like or should have looked like during its original release.

 

However, if that is indeed what Mr. White is saying, that's a dangeous game for someone to be playing, to guess what the filmmaker might have wanted had he made the movie completely differently than he actually made it. Did Brian De Palma or his DP have any input into the Arrow transfer? Is it really Mr. White's call to make a decision like that while the original filmmakers are still alive?

 

On the other hand, if the disc actually does look better in the eyes of the majority of viewers who watch it, is that a bad thing?

 

As RAH said, there may not necessarily be "right" or "wrong" answers here. This is a complex question that can't just be boiled down to: "Yeah, well so-and-so said this, so nyah..."


Edited by JoshZ, November 25 2013 - 11:39 AM.

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#203 of 212 tele1962

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Posted November 25 2013 - 11:54 AM

No dangerous game, no guessing, just some experts restoring a film without altering anything, no agenda,  just using the best elements there is available. Read the post again.


Edited by tele1962, November 25 2013 - 11:57 AM.


#204 of 212 JoshZ

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Posted November 25 2013 - 01:03 PM

No dangerous game, no guessing, just some experts restoring a film without altering anything, no agenda,  just using the best elements there is available. Read the post again.

 

I did read the post. Perhaps you should read it again.

 

Mr. White is very clear that he made a judgment call to "improve" the look of the scene, which he felt looked poor in its original release, but he believed could look "better" with modern technology and processes. Again: Is that really his call to make?


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#205 of 212 John Hodson

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Posted November 25 2013 - 01:19 PM

Actually, for a man of his experience, his integrity, and his constant desire to service The Film, I would have to say that failing having De Palma or Richard Kline on hand to advise him, that yes. Yes it is his call.

Someone has to make those calls; put it this way. Would you trust Robert Harris to do the right thing? If so, you can trust James White.

Edited by John Hodson, November 25 2013 - 01:26 PM.

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#206 of 212 FoxyMulder

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Posted November 25 2013 - 01:44 PM

Francis Coppola never actually said that. According to second- and third-hand sources, a representative from Zoetrope allegedly said that. Coppola has never spoken about the Dracula Blu-ray on the record, to my knowledge.

 

I find the claims that every single release of that film, including every theatrical print, were wildly incorrect and nothing at all like what Coppola wanted, and the only accurate representation of the movie was a mysterious answer print hidden way in a warehouse unseen by human eyes until the Blu-ray was released, to be completely ludicrious. But that's another argument and off-topic for this thread. :)

 

We'll have to find that Dracula thread and re-open the debate. 


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#207 of 212 Steen DK

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Posted November 26 2013 - 01:58 AM

We'll have to find that Dracula thread and re-open the debate. 

 

:laugh:



#208 of 212 Robert Harris

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Posted November 26 2013 - 06:50 AM

Actually, for a man of his experience, his integrity, and his constant desire to service The Film, I would have to say that failing having De Palma or Richard Kline on hand to advise him, that yes. Yes it is his call.Someone has to make those calls; put it this way. Would you trust Robert Harris to do the right thing? If so, you can trust James White.

I would trust Mr. White to make that call. He was dealing with a very interesting situation, and one that doesn't occur frequently.

Two sets of elements.

One older set, with timing baked in at the dupe stage, as well as it could be for the era of the specific dupe stock, in representing the way that the scene had been exposed and processed. And another that may give a more pleasing representation of the shot, having access to digital tools.

I found myself in precisely the same situation in dealing with the assassination sequence in the Italian restaurant from The Godfather. On the second night of the shoot, a huge error occurred at the lab.

I had no way of knowing this, except by examining the shots as part of an original dye transfer print, which yielded a huge question mark. Why did the shots look wrong?

Fortunately, I was able to pick up the phone, and ask the question of Mr. Willis, and in doing so, took him back to that morning viewing dailies in 1972, discovering that the lab had neglected to push process his work - and thereby ruining his perfectly good morning in 2007.

Mr. White reached out to both his director and DP, but unfortunately received no response.

He did what he felt was correct under the circumstances. A very decent judgment call. Was it correct? I have no answer.

Does it look different, based upon the element and tools now available?

Yes.

Might things have been handled differently?

Yes.

One could hold up the completion of the master, and the Blu-ray release until someone from the production became involved, and explained how they wanted the shot handled.

Was that luxury available to Arrow?

Probably not.

RAH
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#209 of 212 Jari K

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Posted November 26 2013 - 06:51 AM

I guess one question on this debate would be, that do I trust people like Mr. White more than some of you "forum experts" (not talking about RAH, though, we all know his rep)? Sorry, but Mr. White gets my vote - even without any official word from De Palma or his DoP.

What information has TT provided us about the Fox transfer/master? I mean people behind the Arrow transfer have been pretty open when it comes to sharing information. Not sure what TT has really told us, since basically they just took the existing master and put it out there.

There are several films with DVD/BD releases "out there" where you basically have get at least two different releases to get the all the extras, best transfer, audio, etc. And The Fury is not one of them.

#210 of 212 Yorkshire

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Posted November 26 2013 - 06:59 AM

I'd just like to thank everyone on (dare I say) both 'sides' of this debate.  It's very enlightening, and not just in relation to this release.  It opens a window on to the processes used and problems inherent in creating a Blu-ray Disc, even when given the OCN.  As James White notes - even then you have to make a judgement call.

 

When people here consider whether or not they have the original director/DOP to discuss the trasfrer with, I'd remind people that the very concept of having your display calibrated is based largely on the truth that human colour memory is very poor.  Show someone a card that's a particular shade of blue - get them to leave the room for a minute - bring them back in to a pile of 20 blue cards, each a slightly different shade - they'll get it wrong 9 times out of 10.

 

In reference to RAH's post (above) I'm sure there are problematic scenes like this which stick long in the memory.  I'm sure there are hundreds of others they can't remember having shot!  I do not belive that, if BdP had been consulted, we could be 100% certain that his memory of how he wanted it to look would be 100% accurate.

 

It's a great thing that we have enough individuals involved in preserving film, restoring it, and creating Blu-ray Discs as knowledgeable and passionate as this.  It's almost as important that we have a knowledgeable customer base, which is what makes threads like this so imporant.

 

Keep the discussion going. Discuss the options, the possibilities, the limits.

 

And let's keep it civil.

 

Steve W


Edited by Yorkshire, November 26 2013 - 07:33 AM.

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#211 of 212 Robert Harris

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Posted November 26 2013 - 07:05 AM

I guess one question on this debate would be, that do I trust people like Mr. White more than some of you "forum experts" (not talking about RAH, though, we all know his rep)? Sorry, but Mr. White gets my vote - even without any official word from De Palma or his DoP.
What information has TT provided us about the Fox transfer/master? I mean people behind the Arrow transfer have been pretty open when it comes to sharing information. Not sure what TT has really told us, since basically they just took the existing master and put it out there.
There are several films with DVD/BD releases "out there" where you basically have get at least two different releases to get the all the extras, best transfer, audio, etc. And The Fury is not one of them.


Quite correct. TT was given a clone, and used it.

Had the release been in prep a bit later, they might have been aware of the work that Arrow was performing, on an element they had arranged to use, and for which were paying all associated costs.

TT has also been transparent in the way that they work, and have averred that had they known that a new transfer was coming, would have helped to fund it.

The silver lining here, us that with knowledge, comes communication. In the future we may have a better sharing of costs and elements.

But in the end, what most likely would have occurred, had a deal been in place to share The Fury, would have been the Arrow release under the TT label here in The Colonies.

And these threads would never have been...

RAH

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#212 of 212 Robert George

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Posted November 26 2013 - 03:03 PM

...And these threads would never have been...

RAH

 

 

Where's the fun in that?   :)

 

I'm sorry that I have been remiss in my HTF visits lately and I missed this thread altogether.  I'm afraid my comments may well be irrelevant at this point, but I may well add to the noise anyway.  I'll come back to this later this evening when I have time to post some comments as I have both discs, a decent system, and I have looked at a few video transfers with a critical eye.







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