232 replies to this topic

[Jack P]

Um, maybe the SAME way it was done on the DVD release?     The DVD *gives* you the original score with the extended cut as an option.   Why this somehow becomes an impossiblity on Blu-Ray is the height of absurdity.

 

As for the original score by Daniele Amfitheatrof, it is not a joke.     It has an inappropriate title song that was commissioned that doesn't fit the images of destruction over the credits but the main score is fine as is the theme and it is not the reason why the film ultimately fails.    That fault likes squarely with the overly sainted Sam Peckinpah, who screwed up the film by not writing a script that had a proper ending, and which also took many bizarre detours into pointless subplots (Senta Berger and everything involving the French), which he then compounded by wasting time endlessly during the location shoots.   

 

Then, there is also the fact that I am absolutely opposed to the idea of music replacement in any kind of film or TV program with music composed decades after the fact.    This was a horrible policy on the "Fugitive" TV series that CBS/Paramount had to fix, and its even more wrong with this movie IMO (as for what Peckinpha thought, he's a fine one to complain since he wasn't the producer and since he made more mistakes on the film than could ever be placed on the shoulders of Daniele Amfitheatrof).

 

This still leaves us with the fact that the long cut and the proper score have already existed on home video in the past.   Asking for that to be duplicated on Blu-Ray was not asking too much.    I will not let TT force me to watch the long cut with the score that I hate.

[John Hermes]

Good thoughts, Jack.  There is nothing wrong with the original score in my opinion either.  I even like the main title theme.

[Jack P]

I've now heard the official explanation from Nick Redman of TT that they purposefully removed the option to see the extended cut with the original score, thinking that for some reason it was "win-win" to only let those of us who hate the replacement score to see it on the old cut only.      No, Mr. Redman it isn't "win-win" it's lose-lose and NO SALE with me.    I am not going to listen to a fanboy commissioned score from decades after the fact just to see the version of the movie that makes more narrative sense than the theatrical cut (The new footage at least cleared up one plot hole regarding the fate of the scout).

[David_B_K]

As for the original score by Daniele Amfitheatrof, it is not a joke.     It has an inappropriate title song that was commissioned that doesn't fit the images of destruction over the credits but the main score is fine as is the theme and it is not the reason why the film ultimately fails.    That fault likes squarely with the overly sainted Sam Peckinpah, who screwed up the film by not writing a script that had a proper ending, and which also took many bizarre detours into pointless subplots (Senta Berger and everything involving the French), which he then compounded by wasting time endlessly during the location shoots.   

 

Then, there is also the fact that I am absolutely opposed to the idea of music replacement in any kind of film or TV program with music composed decades after the fact.  

 

Has the original film score been blamed for all these years as the reason Major Dundee was not a success? I thought it was just that the film became muddled after an excellent beginning. I agree that Peckinpah could not think of a really great way to end the film. IMO, it goes off track when the Major and the troops separate. However, I think the French were a great idea. It added to the challenge of taking Charriba by having to contend with the presence of the French in Mexico. However, had the Senta Berger character been merely a nice lady trying to help poor people, they could have included her in a couple of scenes and moved on with the story.

 

I don't really worry too much about what went wrong with the movie. I just enjoy what is good (and most of it is good, IMO). As a Charlton Heston fan, I think it is one of his most impressive screen appearances. I prefer the new score myself. I don't think Amphitheatrof's score is a failure at all (though I did get annoyed with the constant use of the "Charriba motiv); I just like the "fanboy" score better. However, we are in agreement that the Blu-ray should have mirrored the DVD in including the option to watch the longer version with either score. I'm quite surprised they went that way.

 

---EDIT---

 

I was going to edit this post after seeing how many times I used the word 'however'. Instead, I am just going to add this disclaimer that I would have edited it if I were not too lazy.

[Will Krupp]

I thought AT LONG LAST LOVE was supposed to be available for pre-order as of the 22nd yet I can't seem to find it. Did I miss something?

[ahollis]

I thought AT LONG LAST LOVE was supposed to be available for pre-order as of the 22nd yet I can't seem to find it. Did I miss something?

Everything I read said the same thing. I have question in to Twlight Time about it.

[ROclockCK]

Among HTF posters, I seem to be in an atypical situation regarding Major Dundee. Somehow I missed this film during its theatrical run, and then couldn't get into watching it panned and scanned on either network TV or VHS. By the time an OAR Laserdisc of the theatrical cut was released, I'd sold off my LD collection, so that was yet another missed opportunity. Even when the Extended cut DVD was released, I avoided that edition too because it did not include the original theatrical version...and by that late date, I was keenly interested in a comparative viewing. 

 

Now, thanks to this TT Blu-ray, that choice will finally be possible. However, after so many years of near misses with Dundee, I can't decide which order someone new to this film should experience it for the first time? The geek in me wants to watch it historically, warts and all. But the movie fan wonders if that would be an aesthetic mistake?

 

Any recommendations? I'm just about ready to flip a coin here...

[Jack P]

My recommendation is get the DVD.    The longer cut makes more narrative sense even though the film still suffers from major plot holes thanks to an incomplete script shooting script but the long cut at least resolves one glaring point regarding the ultimate fate of one character who in the theatrical cut disappears without explanation.     And the DVD gives you the option to decide which score is more appropriate.     Frankly, after experiencing the extended version, I now regard the theatrical cut as worthless from a viewing standpoint which is why I'm not going to accept a Blu Ray that forces me to watch a lesser version just to hear the score I prefer.

[JoHud]

I usually watch the longer cuts of film of roughly this era with a few exceptions as the shorter cuts are usually the result of studio interference, similar to The Big Red One and Brazil.  I haven't seen this movie yet, but it looks like the extended cut is the way to go.  The musical score issue does sound annoying.  I guess TT did it to give the theatrical cut more of a distinct difference in experience.

[Jack P]

Actually I think they did this beacuse they just have a big contempt for the original score and love to pat themselves on the back so much for having in their minds "improved" things by replacing the score just because Peckinpah hated it.      When the whole issue of a replacement score first came up back in 2005 they were amazingly cavalier in how they were doing such a wonderful thing and ignoring completely the ethical question of whether commissioning a new score for a movie 40 years later for reasons having nothing to do with missing archival elements but simply pure aesthetic spite, was any more appropriate than colorization.      More recently, after being subjected to the whole debacle of music replacement on "The Fugitive" TV series on DVD, I am now 100% of the belief that there is no justification period for slapping a music score not composed at the time of the original production into a movie.     If you were giving us an alternate version of "Torn Curtain" with the rejected Bernard Herrmann score, that's another thing entirely (or the two version of "Legend") because you're still working with original production elements.

 

But this of course is, I recognize, a perspective not everyone will share regarding whether a score replacement like this should be done or not, just as its also subjective as to whether or not one score is better than the other.     Which is why the easiest way to keep both sides happy and avoid any bad feeling associated with this release, is to just let us have the same more definitive cut of the film with both scores as was done previously.    Once the precedent was established with the DVD release, there was no legitimate justification for doing the Blu Ray this way.     Frankly, who needs the old theatrical cut when it isn't necessary any longer?    Once the DVD came out, it became for me as useless as an old theatrical cut of "Lawrence Of Arabia."

Edited by Jack P, March 24 2013 - 11:49 PM.

[Moe Dickstein]

so then are the extended moments just to go unscored?

[Jack P]

The extended moments were already tracked with earlier Amfitheatrof cues.    That precedent has been used with every other "new cut" I've seen of a movie which was originally unscored.      If someone wanted to compose something new to match the earlier score, that's another thing entirely from throwing out the old score altogether.    If all the lost scenes for Cleopatra surfaced (all of which were unscored) you wouldn't throw out Alex North's music for all the scenes he did in a "new" cut.

[Twilight Time]

Ordinarily, I wouldn't chime in on this kind of subject, but here I feel it is important to clear up some really silly misconceptions about this film and its new score. Over the years, "Jack P," an alias, has seen fit to bash me personally, and now by extension Twilight Time, for ruining a film that this poster doesn't really have that much interest in -- he is only really concerned with the ethics, or lack thereof, involved in taking the radical step to replace the music in a then 40 year old film. So let's start with some basic facts:

 

In 2004, Paul Seydor, Garner Simmons, David Weddle and I were asked to record an audio commentary for the film. During the course of the commentary (carried over on the Blu-ray) some negative comments were made about the score and in particular Sam P's long, and enduring hatred of it.

As a result, Sony made the unprecedented decision to engage a composer to write a completely new score for the "extended version" (which Daniele Amfitheatrof had not scored) to perhaps better represent what the director's original intentions were. As we know, the "extended version" is not a director's cut, but an approximation of what Peckinpah may, or may not, have preferred.

 

Some vigorous discussions about "revisionist" thinking ensued, but Sony engaged a young composer, Christopher Caliendo, with whom they had previously worked to handle the assignment. Paul Seydor and I were asked by the studio to consult with the composer, and give him background history on the project in an effort to guide him. This had been his biggest job to date--the schedule was tight, the budget small (isn't it always?) and there was no time to dilly-dally. The decision was made, and the studio machinery was now grinding. Caliendo spent all of the Christmas holidays furiously penning the new music, and the score was recorded in Jan 2005, to make an April theatrical run. I attended the recording sessions, and subsequently co-produced with Christopher a soundtrack CD of his music.

 

When the DVD was released in Summer 2005 as a single-disc, it was stressed that as it was not going to include the original theatrical cut as a bonus, it was deemed essential to not ditch Amfitheatrof's score, even though technically it had no place in the "extended version" -- to lose it altogether would have been an historical tragedy, so a seamless-branching option was provided to give viewers a "choice." It was a less-than satisfactory option as two title cards had to be prepared and it created the "neither fish nor fowl" effect of being an awkward hybrid. However, it was the only thing possible at the time. Christopher Caliendo had been put in a difficult position because his work, whether one likes it or not, was always going to court controversy and he would be at the center of an enduring argument about how fundamentally right or wrong is it to "tamper" with an artwork after the fact. Appreciating how much of a no-win situation this was for Christopher, a couple of years later I was instrumental in hiring him to score John Ford's silent epic, "The Iron Horse" for Fox (along with some other Ford silents), for which he deservedly received world-wide acclaim.

 

Now the Blu-ray:

 

Back in 2005 it never occurred to us that we would again be involved in a release of the title, least of all on our own fledgling label. Sony has done an incredible job of remastering the "extended version," even going so far to correct some errors in the 2005 dub which had been rushed due to time constraints. Here, reel-by-reel, the dub has been evaluated and subtly improved. The PQ, as is typical for Sony, is outstanding. But here's the rub: the brand-new Blu-ray master only contains the Caliendo score, and there are no awkward seamless--branching options. Instead, for the first time on a digital format the original theatrical cut has been remastered in all its slightly shorter glory, complete with the original score as it should be. And it has been isolated for the enjoyment of those who want to hear it apart from the film. CC's score is isolated on the "extended version." We believe this presentation is true to history, and that most Peckinpah fans will accept this as a fair compromise. We are well aware that not everyone will be (Hello, "Jack P!") and that in no scenario is everyone happy. But it's important to remember that the world is made up of a million decisions made in micro-seconds and that not all are the right ones. But most agree that given all the confounding possibilities, things come out even in the wash more often than not.

 

All best,

 

Nick Redman

[Jack P]

Mr. Redman's suggestion that I have "over the years" bashed him personally is news to me.     I have strong feelings on this subject to be sure, but it's hardly taken up much of my time over the years.    Frankly, when the DVD came out, I didn't have any reason to argue the subject strongly simply because the fair solution to the problem posed by the ethical question was solved by letting those of us who don't like the idea of a new score see the long cut with the score that was made for the film at the time.    I had one harsh exchange with another person (not Mr. Redman) at this place a year ago when that person rather arrogantly attacked anyone who didn't subscribe to the idea that the original score was a horrible thing and one would have to have been crazy to have preferred it etc.

 

And Mr. Redman is also dead wrong when he says I don't have any interest in this film.    I most certainly do as a consumer who has the DVD and has seen the format of Blu-Ray as something I should supposedly then upgrade to, because I have watched this film a number of times over the years and find much to like about it in the parts that show a film that had some magnificent potential but then fell apart for reasons totally unrelated to the music score.    but if I'm going to spend a lot of money on a product that allows me to legitimately upgrade, then as an interested consumer I should think that whole point of having a reason to "upgrade" fails miserably when the product presentation of the earlier format is not duplicated on Blu-Ray.      For the same reason I have never bought and never will buy the DVD releases of "1776" for compromising the integrity of the version I experienced on LD, I will not buy a version of the movie that now has a narrative line that is unsatisfactory in light of the fact that an alternate version *has been presented* in the home video format before that strengthens the earlier viewing experience.    So that issue is very much of importance to me as much as the ethical question of is it right or not to replace a score, period, which in light of the Mark Heyes music for the "Fugitive" experience of the last few years which people rightly objected to, is not an issue to sneeze at.       It frankly should get a lot more discussion than I think it did at the time this first took place as much as the issue of colorization has been discussed.      But these kinds of debates would be moot if the simple, fair solution of the DVD had been retained.    I might not like the ethics of the idea behind a replacement score, but at least I still have a better version of the film to watch (the old cut is now a bigger narrative mess with the scene regarding the fate of the scout left out) with the score and sound of the film I prefer.    Now that option is gone and I'm told, "watch the old cut instead".     Whether by intention or not, that comes off as treating those who preferred the old score in a more second-rate category because now we have to be the ones who have to clutter up our shelves with additional material because we're *not* upgrading our existing copy.      I think that's not treating part of the target audience who would have otherwise been interested in buying this Blu-Ray with respect.

 

As for the idea that Amfitheatrof's score had "no place" in the extended verison, I'll buy that arugment the same day I also hear the powers that be tell us that if an extended cut of "Cleopatra" could be created then since Alex North never scored those missing scenes, *all* of his music should be thrown out in a "new cut" altogether.    Peckinpah should have spent less time blaming others for how the film turned out and more time blaming himself for not providing some story coherence in the script.

 

All of that's just a subjective take on the matter, but the DVD scenario was the one where everyone was happy with the results, and that's just to me the real pity of this.  

[Reggie W]

It seems to me this has been handled in exactly the way it should have by Twilight Time. They present the original theatrical cut of the film with the original score and they present the extended cut of the film...as Mr. Redman states "not a director's cut"...with the score that was created to give us that alternative version.

 

I don't think it is a matter of which score is better, what matters is the film is presented in the best way possible for both versions that exist. If you forced the original score into the "extended cut" what you really end up with is a third version of the film and one that also would not be Mr. Peckinpah's "director's cut" because no such cut exists. 

 

We have the preserved history now of the theatrical cut and the "extended" version with the score created for it. 

[Doctorossi]

We have the preserved history now of the theatrical cut and the "extended" version with the score created for it. 

 

And Bingo was his name-o.

[David_B_K]

As for the idea that Amfitheatrof's score had "no place" in the extended verison, I'll buy that arugment the same day I also hear the powers that be tell us that if an extended cut of "Cleopatra" could be created then since Alex North never scored those missing scenes, *all* of his music should be thrown out in a "new cut" altogether.    Peckinpah should have spent less time blaming others for how the film turned out and more time blaming himself for not providing some story coherence in the script.

 

All of that's just a subjective take on the matter, but the DVD scenario was the one where everyone was happy with the results, and that's just to me the real pity of this.  

 

I think you have strayed in "apples and oranges" territory with the comparison to Alex North's score for Cleopatra. North's score has always been praised as one of the best things about Cleopatra. I'm sure Manciewicz felt himself quite fortunate to have the services of Alex North for his film. The idea that any restored scenes (which isn't going to happen anyway) would force them to throw out North's score is absurd. If such a thing happened (adding new scenes), they'd probably use one of North's existing cues (he had some rather generic background music cues that could probably be re-used in scenes set in Egypt). Or they'd leave it unscored. Not every scene needs music anyway.

 

The Dundee re-score was a response to the fact that the director did not care for the original score.

[Jack P]

I think you have strayed in "apples and oranges" territory with the comparison to Alex North's score for Cleopatra. North's score has always been praised as one of the best things about Cleopatra. I'm sure Manciewicz felt himself quite fortunate to have the services of Alex North for his film. The idea that any restored scenes (which isn't going to happen anyway) would force them to throw out North's score is absurd. If such a thing happened (adding new scenes), they'd probably use one of North's existing cues (he had some rather generic background music cues that could probably be re-used in scenes set in Egypt). Or they'd leave it unscored. Not every scene needs music anyway.

 

The Dundee re-score was a response to the fact that the director did not care for the original score.

 

Nope, I'm afraid the principal is the same one.    You decide to do it with one score, and you open the Pandora's box to justify tampering with films that should be products of their time on all other levels in more ways than just replacing a music score.       In this case, the argument being presented is that Amfitheatrof "did not score the extended version" beacuse he did not write music for the extra scenes that were reinserted in the new cut.    My point is simply that to use that as a basis for doing something unprecdented and throwing out the extant score that is *still* there for the scenes that are also part of the new cut is a perspective that makes no sense to me and never will.     Especially when you *already* have the precedent of the long cut with the original score released commercially on DVD.    If I had been demanding that TT do something for Blu-Ray that had *not* been previously done on DVD, then frankly much of what I'm saying wouldn't have a lot of legitimacy to demand that something be done that was never done previously (this is the point Reggie's post msises.  He doesn't seem to realize that the "third version" has already been there).      TT has to accept the fact that once the DVD solution was done, then some consideration would have to be given for those who are now accustomed to the idea of the long cut with its original score.

 

And I have made the argument in the past that what Peckinpah thought in regards to what ultimately happened with this film are not considerations that should take first priority.     Peckinpah was not the producer of the film, so there were always going to be certain matters out of his hands on that point.    He was however, the man charged with writing the script and it was his failure to address certain points of story narrative in the script he wrote that IMO are the reasons why this film failed, combined with the fact that he wasted a lot of time on location instead of fixing the problems with the film that needed to be fixed.     This is a film that has a lot of problems that keep it from becoming a great film, but the score was never the reason for that (I will agree that the title song is inappropriate for the title visuals of carnage and if the producers were concerned with wanting some commercial song to use for the film they would have been better off sticking that over the end credits;  the underscore though I've never had a problem with).

 

And incidentally, people seem to be presuming that the new cut of the film was first put together without music.   In fact, it was first put together with the old score with some trackings put in for the new scenes.     The commentary track in fact is done to a version of the long cut with the old score (so I guess the irony there is that on the Blu-Ray as you watch the commentary you will in fact hear the old score but can't do so for the film itself).

Edited by Jack P, March 25 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[Reggie W]

That's fine,  Jack, and I don't want to argue but the new "extended version" of the film was created with Peckinpah and what he might have preferred in mind. It was a chance to reimagine the film and assemble what there was into something that Peckinpah might have preferred...not what the producers might have preferred. So, the "producers's cut" exists and is part of the Twilight Time package. The later cut of the film and the score created for it were done with that in mind...a "What would Sam have done?" sort of fantasy project and Sam stated he did not like the score...so that was why the new score was created. 

 

It seems what you are debating here is that there was a special feature created for the DVD that they fail to include on the blu but there is good reason for that...as Mr. Redman explained. To compensate for that lost special feature you get the entire theatrical cut of the film...which seems a far better deal than what we got on the DVD.

 

Really there are two versions so you can compare and contrast...at least that is my feeling why there are two versions...the old score went on the extended version because Sam would have used another score IF he had the choice at the time. 

[Jack P]

Well I'm afraid I don't consider it a "special feature".   I consider it an equally viable version of the film that people should be able to judge for themselves and decide on its own merits and the DVD presentation was recognizing that thusly.       I really can not understand this insistence that if I like the original version of the score I should watch a version of the film that has a more compromised narrative.    How exactly am I deriving viewing enjoyment from that?    Yes, you've satisfied perhaps an "archival" purpose of some sorts, but it sure as heck isn't enhancing the viewing experience.      I might add that this is the same reason why I don't watch the short versions of "It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" or "The Alamo".     In the case of those films though, I'm well aware of the reasons why they can't do the long cuts on DVD or Blu-Ray so there's no need for ill feeling on those points.     But this film is not a case where it was impossible to do so and that it can *never* be done this way on Blu-Ray.     That's the difference.