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A few words about...™ Peter Pan -- in Blu-ray

A Few Words About

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#61 of 79 Mike Frezon

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Posted February 13 2013 - 06:57 AM

Ron:


Welcome to the HTF.  What a treat to welcome someone with your background to the forum.


Hope you decide to "kick the tires" and give the place a thorough test drive and then decide to become a regular contributor.




There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself.Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!


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#62 of 79 Ron Barbagallo

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Posted February 14 2013 - 07:55 AM

Hi Mike: For years, a colleague has sent me excerpts of what Bob Harris has to say on your site about the Disney film restorations just to get my thoughts privately. And, I don't mind writing for your site but I apply "the artist's original intent" formula similar to the directorial/art director/cinematography's original intent that Harris applies to his live action work, and I say this while understanding the studios and the personalities who work at the studios are what they are and that press rarely matches reality. Would it be possible to speak briefly on the phone before I contribute on your site? If so, email me at rmb@animationartconservation.com and I'll send you my contact information. To streamline things and in order to facilitate information for your readers, I'd need some direction to gage where I'd be the most help.

#63 of 79 Johnny Angell

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Posted February 14 2013 - 08:47 AM

Mike, do call Ron. Methinks he doth have much to contribute. :)
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#64 of 79 Mike Frezon

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Posted February 14 2013 - 04:47 PM

Johnny: I whole-heartedly agree.


Ron:  I am just a working stiff around these parts.  Posted Image  I have made the owners of the forum aware of your request and will have one (or possibly some) of them reach out to you for your requested discussion.  Be on the alert for a contact from Ron Epstein, Adam Gregorich, Kevin Collins or David Upton.


Looking forward to reading more of your insights in the future.  Posted Image


There's Jessie the yodeling cowgirl. Bullseye, he's Woody's horse. Pete the old prospector. And, Woody, the man himself.Of course, it's time for Woody's RoundUp. He's the very best! He's the rootinest, tootinest cowboy in the wild, wild west!


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Dieting with my Dog & Heart to Heart/Hand in Paw by Peggy Frezon


#65 of 79 Ron Barbagallo

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Posted February 15 2013 - 04:53 AM

Johnny and Mike - Will do. I believe in all things (not just DVDs) that people know the greater truths about things. Once someone in publicity at Disney was talking to me about one of the DVD versions of Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937) and cited the fact that Frank and Ollie said such glowing things about the DVD and compared it to the colors and splendor that was the original print. I had many observations. First off was that a deep, specialized understanding of color was not something I'd be seeking from someone whose chief job at Disney was to emotionally move shapes around a white sheet of paper using a black and white pencil. Animators are not colorists. Secondly, rousing endorsements to sell product is what keeps studio employees employed. My prediction is some day some zealot will take one of these DVDs (and it may not be a Disney one) but someone will find a way to digitize it, color correct it and upload a faithful purist vision because the Internet is ripe for this sort of thing. I've often wondered what happened to the YCM version of Snow White because nothing resembling it or the Comandini version of Star Wars: A New Hope has surfaced. And, when I watch Blu Rays outside of the Disney ones, like the last or is it first Blu Ray for "The Sound of Music" (1965) I say to myself while I'm watching it: "Why are all the flesh tones of the nuns inbred-looking toward the beginning of the film? And, why are all the darker values in the 78% - 100% black range entirely dead and devoid of detail where the shoulders on the people in the crowd of the Edelweiss/colosseum scene fall directly and entirely to black as they descend downward?" In talking with other professionals about it, the answer is budgetary with a secondary answer of limitations of time and the source materials. However, it doesn't mean I can't see the mistakes. They're very evident to me and frankly when I'm watching "Lawrence of Arabia" there are no mistakes. It's an even experience devoid of my eye hitting a visual record skip and saying "What the heck is going on with the..."

#66 of 79 Johnny Angell

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Posted February 16 2013 - 08:17 AM

When I read what Ron is writing, what I read is "movies are released on disc in the real world." What I have learned participating on this forum is that we on the HTF are sometimes wishing for movies to be released in Fantasyland. I wish the arts didn't have to be a business, that all the matters is the creativity. My Dad had a saying "wish in on hand and pee in the other and see which one gets filled the quickest." I've bought a few discs over the years that made me feel peed on. :D
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#67 of 79 ahollis

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Posted February 16 2013 - 08:24 AM

When I read what Ron is writing, what I read is "movies are released on disc in the real world." What I have learned participating on this forum is that we on the HTF are sometimes wishing for movies to be released in Fantasyland. I wish the arts didn't have to be a business, that all the matters is the creativity. My Dad had a saying "wish in on hand and pee in the other and see which one gets filled the quickest." I've bought a few discs over the years that made me feel peed on. :D

LOL.
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#68 of 79 bigshot

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Posted February 16 2013 - 02:23 PM

There's an interview with Frank where someone asked him what he thought of the color on the Snow White laserdisc. He diplomatically replied, "Nice colors... Not at all the ones we used in 1937, but nice." Warner Bros operates in the real world, and their Looney Tunes blurays are a hundred times better than Disney's transfers of Alice or Sleeping Beauty. Consumers just have to demand quality and show Disney that they really do care. Return crappy transfers to the store you bought them at and tell them why you're returning it.

#69 of 79 ahollis

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Posted February 16 2013 - 02:55 PM

There's an interview with Frank where someone asked him what he thought of the color on the Snow White laserdisc. He diplomatically replied, "Nice colors... Not at all the ones we used in 1937, but nice." Warner Bros operates in the real world, and their Looney Tunes blurays are a hundred times better than Disney's transfers of Alice or Sleeping Beauty. Consumers just have to demand quality and show Disney that they really do care. Return crappy transfers to the store you bought them at and tell them why you're returning it.

In a perfect word that would happen but all those thousands of DVDs and Blu-rays that parents buy will never be returned or not purchased in the first place. With the Disney classic animated features we need to realize that the lovers and ones that appreciate the classic features really don't make a difference. However since this is thread on PETER PAN, I enjoyed the title but do not go for the non film like transfer.
"Get a director and a writer and leave them alone. That`s how the best pictures get made" - William "Wild Bill" Wellman


#70 of 79 Guest__*

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Posted February 16 2013 - 03:07 PM

I have see Technicolor frames from "Snow White." I realize that these aren't projected frames, but the overall look was brown. Everything seemed to have a brown tint. The blu-ray has better color and shadow detail, IMHO.



#71 of 79 Oblivion138

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Posted February 16 2013 - 07:54 PM

Warner Bros operates in the real world, and their Looney Tunes blurays are a hundred times better than Disney's transfers of Alice or Sleeping Beauty.

They've also decided not to include Mouse Cleaning and Casanova Cat in Volume Two of the Tom & Jerry Golden Collection, due to the blackface gags in each of the respective shorts. Volume One had a warning screen which stated that "While the following does not represent the Warner Bros.' view of today's society, some of these cartoons are being presented as they were originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed." Apparently, they are now claiming just that, by sweeping two shorts under the rug despite previous assurances that the classic T&J shorts were to be released uncut and in chronological order. I'll take Disney's Sleeping Beauty transfer over a gutless move like that.

#72 of 79 bigshot

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Posted February 17 2013 - 07:44 AM

Disney won't release Song of the South. That's worse than two Tom & Jerry cartoons. But at least what Warner Bros *does* release is well transferred. I think pehaps the complaints are having an impact. Peter Pan looks a lot better than Alice did. The color in Sleeping Beauty was awful. Nothing like the way it was supposed to look. And there's no excuse for that. They have tons of color reference on that film.

#73 of 79 Oblivion138

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Posted February 17 2013 - 08:54 PM

To the best of my knowledge, Disney never said that they were going to release Song of the South uncut on BD, then refused to do so. The Golden Collection was billed as a chronological release of the classic, unedited T&J shorts. Omitting Mouse Cleaning and Casanova Cat at this point is more than simple refusal...it's defeating the entire stated purpose of the Golden Collection. And Warner's output is as good as the masters. The T&J transfers look much better than their Looney Tunes presentations, due to very good work done on those T&J shorts by entities other than Warner Brothers.

#74 of 79 bigshot

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Posted February 20 2013 - 01:30 PM

Have you seen the Looney Tunes on bluray? They've never looked better. They look better than the Tom & Jerrys

#75 of 79 Oblivion138

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Posted February 20 2013 - 08:27 PM

I have both volumes of LT, yes. They look good. The T&J shorts, however, look better.

#76 of 79 bigshot

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Posted February 21 2013 - 09:51 AM

The Looney Tunes are being restored from original negs. The Tom & Jerry negs were lost in a fire. I think you might just like the MGM look better than the Warner look. To me, seeing Great Piggy Bank Robbery and Book Revue looking like they do is a revelation. I've seen these on the big screen in 35 and they didn't look anywhere near that good. The Tom & Jerrys look pretty close to what I've seen in the past in theater screenings. Very nice, but not as crisp and varied in color palette as the new WB cartoons.

#77 of 79 Oblivion138

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Posted February 21 2013 - 06:07 PM

Or maybe it's just that there seems to be a lot more visible dirt, density fluctuations, etc. on the Looney Tunes transfers. Not to an entirely distracting degree, but they don't look as thoroughly cleaned up as the T&J shorts. And that the T&J shorts are nicely cleaned up without resorting to Disney's revisionist "rebuild from the ground up" tactics goes without saying. At any rate, I've been looking forward to Volume 2 of T&J for a long time. Not so much now that I know they're chickening out on releasing potentially "offensive" shorts, in direct contradiction to their past "commitment" to releasing the shorts in chronological order rather than "claiming these prejudices never existed."

#78 of 79 bigshot

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Posted February 22 2013 - 06:21 AM

Looney Tunes went on for a very long time. If you compare the mid 30s Looney Tunes to the mid 40s Tom & Jerry cartoons, the T&J generally look better simply because of age. If you compare the mid 40s T&J to the mid 50s LT, the newer LT look better. But apples to apples, the Looney Tunes are in better shape. Look at "Kitty Cornered" for instance. That cartoon is absolutely stunning. It's never looked like that before. One of the best restortations I've ever seen. The mid 40s Looney Tunes look great on the second set. Compare those to the Tom & Jerry and you'll see what I mean.

#79 of 79 Robert Harris

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Posted February 23 2013 - 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by bigshot 

Looney Tunes went on for a very long time. If you compare the mid 30s Looney Tunes to the mid 40s Tom & Jerry cartoons, the T&J generally look better simply because of age. If you compare the mid 40s T&J to the mid 50s LT, the newer LT look better.

But apples to apples, the Looney Tunes are in better shape. Look at "Kitty Cornered" for instance. That cartoon is absolutely stunning. It's never looked like that before. One of the best restortations I've ever seen. The mid 40s Looney Tunes look great on the second set. Compare those to the Tom & Jerry and you'll see what I mean.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that the animated shorts are generally in excellent condition, presuming that the OCN survives, as much Vista productions, those negatives were hardly used.


A fine grain for protection, a set or two of matrices, an IP (once we hit the Eastman era), and everything else should have been derived from dupes.  We're looking at ten runs or thereabouts for a negative.  When an image is harvested properly from an OCN, the final results can be startlingly beautiful.


RAH


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