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Help with final speaker selection


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#1 of 21 OFFLINE   maxsound7

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Posted December 31 2012 - 05:22 AM

I am on a budget and looking for sound quality for both home theatre and music (electronic and rock). I am thinking 2.1 or 3.1 with the ability to add up to 5.1 in the future when I have more $. The room is about 20'x14'x8'. The speaker choices so far in budget from reading the forums are as follows: 1) The ideal option would be converting my old IASCA Competition Vehicle speakers into a home audio system; - Image Dynamics CXS speakers (6.5"mid, 1" tweet) (4 OHM, 25-250W, 90db, 65Hz-250kHZ), have a pair of these. - IDQv IDQ 10D4 V.3 (10" Dual 4 OHM, 50 -500wRms, http://www.imagedyna...sa.net/idq.html), have 2 of these can make 2 boxes. The cost here would only be to have the boxes built, I do not feel like doing this myself. figure $300?. OR 2) SVS SBS02 speakers $149 for the pair with PB1000 $475. 3) Pioneer FS51 tower speakers $75 with Pioneer SPC21 $99 and a really good subwoofer budget would be $450. 4a) Axiom Audio VP100 $252 with the M3's $340 (may need stands add $200). 4b) Just the Axiom Audio tower M50s $774. 4c) Axiom Audio M3's $774 with a really good subwoofer budget would be $300. Receiver: I am budgeting approx. $350, willing to wait on a good deal. The Receiver will be purchased to run whichever route I go with and also have an Audyssey MultiEQ, from what I have read. Subwoofer: I could use some recommendations on the best subwoofer for the ideal option above. Any other/better suggestions are welcome! Thanks again in advance for any assistance, your expertise and experience are greatly appreciated.

#2 of 21 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted December 31 2012 - 05:52 AM

You can build boxes for automotive speakers. People have done that for years. My "garage" system for years was a set of MB Quart component speakers being ran off an old LaFayette amp. However, car speakers are 4ohm and lower. But by saving money "not buying speakers", bump your budget to $800 on the AVR....and buy... An Elite(with an original MSRP of at least $600, meaning don't buy the $450 Elite) Pretty much any Onkyo with the model number starting with a 6...609, 616, 709...etc Any HK of 35wpc or higher Any Yamaha starting 5 or higher V571, 673, 810...etc

#3 of 21 OFFLINE   maxsound7

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Posted December 31 2012 - 09:40 AM

Thank for the feedback, I know the ID speakers all sounded great in my IASCA SQ vehicle. I assume from your reply these IDs in the correct enclosures with a high quality receiver would be better options than the other speaker/combo options I have listed for the results I am looking for and the best value for minimum $$ spent.

#4 of 21 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted December 31 2012 - 09:54 AM

Well, it isn't like you are trying to make home speakers out of a $40/pair Pyle...

#5 of 21 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted December 31 2012 - 10:01 AM

You can buy boxes for not even close to $300. Around me, I can find carpeted boxes for $50 pair for 6.5 and $40 a piece for 10" woofers. Ready to just drop the drivers in.

#6 of 21 OFFLINE   maxsound7

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Posted January 06 2013 - 01:08 PM

I think I will have bookshelf boxes made for my former car image dynamics CX64s, a box made for each image dynamics subwoofer for each side of the room and pickup a good Pioneer Elite receiver stable at 4 ohms to power the system. Checking around me the boxes will be approx. $400-$500 max for all 4 custom, its alot more than carpet but I want them to look 'home theatre' good and be built to correct specs for the best sound. A couple questions: 1) If I go this route do I use the car audio recommended specs for all of the boxes or do they need to be designed differently for home audio? 2) This total cost may be around $900-$1000 for the boxes and new receiver (I can get a good deal on Elite receivers). Will this be the best way to go for awesome sound quality for both home theatre and music or is there a better alternative on the same budget? Thanks

#7 of 21 OFFLINE   schan1269

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Posted January 06 2013 - 01:23 PM

I doubt your speakers have "box specs" as car speakers are (technically) infinite baffle. Whatever box you have built, you are going to have to trust the box designer. Just don't buy Elite online. Onkyo are 4ohm stable as well..as is Yamaha RX-A.

#8 of 21 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted January 06 2013 - 01:54 PM

Car speakers are designed for off-axis (aimed towards your leg) listening while home speakers are on-axis (pointed directly at you) listening. On-axis, they may sound harsh. Also, home speakers have baffle step diffraction built into the crossover. That means the width of the front of the speaker is taken into account in the crossover because the wider the baffle, the more pronounced the midrange. Subs are a different animal though. No matter the environment, bass is about moving air and ID subs will move some air. If you can get the Theile/Small parameters then I can help you design some enclosures and choose the correct amp to power them.

#9 of 21 OFFLINE   maxsound7

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Posted January 07 2013 - 04:52 PM

Hi Robert, thanks for the advice and offering your expertise. Putting together the right design for these boxes is crucial. The parameters for the subs are attached, I have two of them and I thought it might be nice to put one in either corner of the back of the room behind the seating, or one in front of the room and one in back, wherever they would work best. I have requested the same parameters for the CX64s hoping they might work, by the sound of your post they may not due to axis. Here is some more information on them just in case: 6.5" Mid 1" Tweeter: Soft Dome, Silk Mid surround is Nitrate Butadiene Rubber Mid Composition is Woven Carbon Fiber 125 RMS power handling each, 250 watts peak power each Sensitivity: 90db Freq Resp: 65-25kHz Impedance per voice coil: 4ohms Top Mount depth 3 1/16", Bottom Mount depth 3 3/16", Cutout dimensions 5 3/4"x5 3/4". Weight 8.5 lbs each I loved the sound these provided in my car, when it comes down to it if they aren't going to provide the same SQ at home with music and HT then other speakers are not out of the question, just maybe out of the budget... If my CX64s are a no go what would you recommend given the specs provided, I would really like to get the same sound at home as I had with these. Thank you, [ATTACHMENT=451]IDQ10 D4 V.2 Spec Sheet.jpg (69k. jpg file)[/ATTACHMENT]

#10 of 21 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted January 08 2013 - 06:09 AM

Since you already have the component sets, it only costs a few dollars for the wood to build a test enclosure. For the subs, build a dual 10", sealed box anywhere from 2 cubic feet to 3 cubic feet. Power it with a Dayton 300w plate amp.

#11 of 21 OFFLINE   maxsound7

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Posted January 08 2013 - 02:29 PM

Thank you Robert, I am waiting on specs for the components, likely next monday when the techs return from CES or recover from a week in vegas....

#12 of 21 OFFLINE   maxsound7

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Posted January 08 2013 - 02:39 PM

Just to verify, that would be 300W RMS into 4 ohms? I am having trouble finding that specific plate amp on their site, is there another place to find one? and who has the best price on these? Thanks

#13 of 21 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted January 09 2013 - 06:53 AM

Yes, 4 ohm final load. These plate amps are optimized for that load. http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=300-750 300 watt plate amp.

#14 of 21 OFFLINE   maxsound7

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Posted January 15 2013 - 03:33 PM

Picked up the Bash 300W plate amp and now I am ready to build the sub box. I have access to a full workshop but I am totally new to this. You mentioned the box size should be between 2-3 cu ft and sealed. Would interior bracing be required, if so how much? How much foam is required?How do I wire the two subs into the amp and what parts are needed? Any other key points would be appreciated. If the range is between 2-3 cu ft. then do I have to take into account the space occupied by interior bracing and the amp outside of that range? Is there an ideal box shape? Is there an ideal direction the subs should fire since they are car audio, would indirect vs. direct matter? Thank you

#15 of 21 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted January 16 2013 - 12:58 AM

Bracing - Always good to brace. http://www.danmarx.o...ion/tc3000.html is a good example of bracing. If you want to use this design, just mount a driver on each end (dual, opposed subs are always good) and put the amp on the side after trimming the braces to allow it to fit. Foam - better known as fiberfil. Get two of the cheap pillows from Wal-Mart. That will give you about 1 pound per cubic foot. Wiring - Wire each sub for an 8 ohm load. Wire the subs in parallel. Connect them to the amp with speaker wire. Can't get much easier than that. Size - Sub enclosures are always described as net volume. That accounts for driver, amp and brace displacement. Shape - As long as you can fit both subs and the amp on the box, any shape will work. Direction - They are subs. Car audio is just a marketing term. If you go back to my original post, I mentioned the CROSSOVER in the components is the key. If you have the time and money, you could easily make your ID components work in a home system. Measurement and simulation software plus the hardware for crossover design will run you upwards of $1,000 and you will have to learn to properly use is. Back to the sub question - direction does not matter. Though I did suggest one on each end earlier.

#16 of 21 OFFLINE   maxsound7

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Posted January 20 2013 - 09:01 AM

Quick question before I build this, I plan on building 2 cu.ft. as you recommended, was just wondering why is 2 cu.ft. to 3 cu.ft. ideal for this box build? Thanks

#17 of 21 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted January 21 2013 - 01:31 AM

I said anything between 2 cubic feet and 3 cubic feet. I lean toward building subs large so I even showed you a great design that would work with two of your drivers in one enclosure. Why is that size ideal. First, it's the largest size that ID recommends for that sub (1.1 cubic foot for each driver). But that's a car audio design and rarely does that work ideally in a home. Second, the Theile/Small parameters. I've been doing this long enough to look at the low Qts and the medium (for a 10") Vas of your driver and be able to tell the approximate sized enclosure that will work. If you want to confirm my recommendation, download WinISD Pro or Unibox and run the simulations.

#18 of 21 OFFLINE   maxsound7

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Posted January 21 2013 - 07:33 AM

I trust your expertise, thank you Robert_J! pretty much building this using the design you showed me and the advice given here. One last question before I start measuring and cutting, why might opposing subs be better than the standard side by side in this case? Cant wait to get rolling on this, pictures and results will follow once I am done, hopefully this week.

#19 of 21 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted January 21 2013 - 09:32 AM

http://www.epiksubwo...com/legend.html Look at the explanation under Performance. Opposing drivers lowers cabinet vibration. People have been doing it for years with infinite baffle subs for the same reason. In the reviews section here, look at the Paradigm sub. They aren't dual opposed, there are 3 pairs of drivers that are 120 degrees apart. That's still the same concept. Here's an example of dual opposed drivers in an infinite baffle installation

#20 of 21 OFFLINE   maxsound7

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Posted January 24 2013 - 04:03 PM

The sub is in the works! Looking at a few receivers locally and here is what I am in between at the moment, would appreciate a recommendation. First a few things I would like: I dont want a receiver that will colour or brighten sound, natural the way the music was recorded would be ideal. Music and home theatre use will be 60/40in favour of Music. 4ohm stability. Want to make sure that I dont have to crank volume to hear voices in movies and then sounds effects are too loud (current old low end sony does this). Bluetooth/wireless for my iphone music would be cool. Very good EQ to balance and correct sound within a room as needed easily. Cool running. Good power, around 100 rms per channel minimum, but I have heard that a good quality 50w per channel like marantz is better? not sure if thats just the salesman. Best Value for the $, my budget was $500 but will pay more if its a good deal. Here are some current options here, tax included: - Denon 2112 $510 - Denon 2113 $710 - Denon 3312 $790 - Marantz NR1603 $650 - Onkyo NR616 $675 - Pioneer VSX 1122 $700 - Pioneer VSX 1127 $620




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