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TV shows and TV movies gone W I D E


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#301 of 404 OFFLINE   HDvision

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Posted April 04 2014 - 12:50 PM

Thanks Mike, I'll work on updating post 1 tomorrow.

 

Regarding extra horizontal content... my feeling is it's OK because that's how it worked when some of the episodes went into theaters in europe or other parts of the world. That's also how it works in most releases referenced in post 1 (as having gone wide). From a framing standpoint, extra top and bottom however, makes the productions look badly shot (as well as revealing many not intended to be seen microphones or camera cables etc.).



#302 of 404 OFFLINE   HDvision

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Posted April 13 2014 - 02:59 AM

Got my The Professionals Blu-ray set yesterday, it's awesome to see the series in such great quality, finally.
 
I have two questions however that bugs me, one is that the episodes on the set are mastered at 25fps. Unless I'm mistaken, a series shot in 16mm is 24fps. I have no recollection of anything shot on film in the past, being shot at 25fps.
 
Could it be there a pal speed up applied? The episodes are about 50mn long, I believe they should be about 52mn long.
 
Second, thought they went back to the original negatives... the episodes are still zoomed in. The restoration extended the framing both on the left side and the top and bottom, but some of the right edge is still missing. I watched Klansmen yesterday, and could clearly see people cropped out on the frame on the right side in some compositions.
 
After this I did a check on the opening titles, comparing the raw version in the bonus, which is edge to edge, to the final version.
 
Posted Image
 
That's too bad because that part of the frame have information that needs to be there for the compositions to work, in many shots. Otherwise, you will notice people cropped out, especially in crowd scenes.
 
Now the reason I'm posting this here, If you take the edge to edge, and crop out the rounded corners top and bottom (which are the unfortunate result of using 16mm cameras and film stock), you get about the same vertical information as the current master, and a framing that is exactly 14:9.
 
Since the restoration was apparently done scanning the negs edge to edge, and since 14/9 is a british standart, I suspect there might be at some point 14/9 versions appearing on TV or VOD. 

Edited by HDvision, April 13 2014 - 03:01 AM.


#303 of 404 OFFLINE   AndyMcKinney

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Posted April 13 2014 - 09:26 AM

 

Got my The Professionals Blu-ray set yesterday, it's awesome to see the series in such great quality, finally.
 
I have two questions however that bugs me, one is that the episodes on the set are mastered at 25fps. Unless I'm mistaken, a series shot in 16mm is 24fps. I have no recollection of anything shot on film in the past, being shot at 25fps.
 
Could it be there a pal speed up applied? The episodes are about 50mn long, I believe they should be about 52mn long.
 
Second, thought they went back to the original negatives... the episodes are still zoomed in. The restoration extended the framing both on the left side and the top and bottom, but some of the right edge is still missing. I watched Klansmen yesterday, and could clearly see people cropped out on the frame on the right side in some compositions.
 
After this I did a check on the opening titles, comparing the raw version in the bonus, which is edge to edge, to the final version.
 
Posted Image
 
That's too bad because that part of the frame have information that needs to be there for the compositions to work, in many shots. Otherwise, you will notice people cropped out, especially in crowd scenes.
 
Now the reason I'm posting this here, If you take the edge to edge, and crop out the rounded corners top and bottom (which are the unfortunate result of using 16mm cameras and film stock), you get about the same vertical information as the current master, and a framing that is exactly 14:9.
 
Since the restoration was apparently done scanning the negs edge to edge, and since 14/9 is a british standart, I suspect there might be at some point 14/9 versions appearing on TV or VOD. 

 

 

Shot-on-film TV series that were intended for British television (and film inserts that were intended for shows that mixed studio VT footage with filmed exteriors) were always shot 25fps (rather than 24) so that they wouldn't have to be sped-up for 625line PAL broadcast. So, these blu-rays are playing at the correct speed.

 

The only time film for TV shows in the UK was shot 24fps rather than 25fps was the ITC/Lew Grade series that were being shot that way for worldwide distribution as film prints.

 

50 minute episodes for UK television are not uncommon, so don't let the run time confuse you.



#304 of 404 OFFLINE   Vahan_Nisanain

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Posted April 13 2014 - 10:27 AM

Shot-on-film TV series that were intended for British television (and film inserts that were intended for shows that mixed studio VT footage with filmed exteriors) were always shot 25fps (rather than 24) so that they wouldn't have to be sped-up for 625line PAL broadcast. So, these blu-rays are playing at the correct speed.

 

The only time film for TV shows in the UK was shot 24fps rather than 25fps was the ITC/Lew Grade series that were being shot that way for worldwide distribution as film prints.

 

50 minute episodes for UK television are not uncommon, so don't let the run time confuse you.

 

And yet I read The Avengers (seasons 4 and up) were shot 24fps.



#305 of 404 OFFLINE   AndyMcKinney

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Posted April 13 2014 - 11:32 AM

And yet I read The Avengers (seasons 4 and up) were shot 24fps.

 

They were shot for sale to the American ABC network and worldwide syndication, though (the whole reason they switched from tape to film in the first place).

 

So, yes, there are other examples besides ITC/Grade, but all of them are examples where worldwide syndication was a primary consideration.



#306 of 404 OFFLINE   HDvision

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Posted April 14 2014 - 10:37 PM

Funny, but in the book included with the Blu, it's clearly documented this show was intended for foreign sales, especially the US market. The New Avengers, produced by the same team at the same time, was shot 24fps 35mm.

 

I can understand 16mm shot at 25fps (or conformed at 25fps) for programs mixing video and film (Thriller, for example), but a show fully shot in 16mm?


Edited by HDvision, April 15 2014 - 02:33 AM.


#307 of 404 OFFLINE   Vahan_Nisanain

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Posted April 15 2014 - 06:00 AM

A new blu-ray from Shout Factory on Pee-wee's Playhouse is coming, and I cannot help but wonder if that show was shot in 1.37:1, with the intention of going wide.



#308 of 404 OFFLINE   TravisR

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Posted April 15 2014 - 06:32 AM

A new blu-ray from Shout Factory on Pee-wee's Playhouse is coming, and I cannot help but wonder if that show was shot in 1.37:1, with the intention of going wide.

I have no inside info but I think there is virtually no chance that a late 1980's kids TV show was shot for anything but 4x3.



#309 of 404 OFFLINE   AndyMcKinney

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Posted April 17 2014 - 05:00 AM

Funny, but in the book included with the Blu, it's clearly documented this show was intended for foreign sales, especially the US market. The New Avengers, produced by the same team at the same time, was shot 24fps 35mm.

 

I can understand 16mm shot at 25fps (or conformed at 25fps) for programs mixing video and film (Thriller, for example), but a show fully shot in 16mm?

 

The way HDVision's post read (to me, at least) seemed to imply that the films were shot 25fps. A quick re-read, though, makes me think that he was just talking about the presentation on the blu-ray discs themselves, not how they were actually shot.

 

Maybe he meant to say that the blu-ray disc itself is 1080i/50, rather than the episodes being shot at 25fps?

 

As it was Network who released the blu-rays, I'm sure if they had any hand in the HD remastering, they'd have had it done in a way that worked best with however the show was originally filmed (maybe it was shot 25fps for the 'home market', and they were just going to slow it down or send it out on NTSC tapes for export to NTSC countries)?



#310 of 404 OFFLINE   HDvision

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Posted April 17 2014 - 09:33 AM

Someone on another forum sent an email to Optimum, and they answered the show was shot 25fps. I still find it bizarre, as The New Avengers, produced at the same time by the same team, was 24fps as were all their previous series save the one shot half on videotape, half in 16mm.

 

I think there was talk also that Space 1999 was 25fps -- which I find strange too as the series was fully shot on film, and there were theatrical releases.

 

The Professionals discs themselves are 25fps, 1080i HD. In any case, I would like to know why the left side of the frame was considered good for expansion and inclusion in the remastering, but the right side wasn't. The series wasn't really left wing.


Edited by HDvision, April 17 2014 - 09:35 AM.


#311 of 404 OFFLINE   AndyMcKinney

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Posted April 18 2014 - 07:54 PM

Someone on another forum sent an email to Optimum, and they answered the show was shot 25fps. I still find it bizarre, as The New Avengers, produced at the same time by the same team, was 24fps as were all their previous series save the one shot half on videotape, half in 16mm.

 

I think there was talk also that Space 1999 was 25fps -- which I find strange too as the series was fully shot on film, and there were theatrical releases.

 

The Professionals discs themselves are 25fps, 1080i HD. In any case, I would like to know why the left side of the frame was considered good for expansion and inclusion in the remastering, but the right side wasn't. The series wasn't really left wing.

 

There is a very specific technical reason that Space: 1999 was shot 25fps rather than 24fps. It's to do with all the live, in-studio video monitors that are so integral to the show. Since the TV monitors were on a 50hz frequency, shooting at 24fps (a different frequency) was causing "strobing" on the monitors (that is why the picture "rolls" on many old TV shows where you see a TV set in the shot). Gerry Anderson discovered, though, that if they shot at 25fps (which is the same frequency as the 50hz monitors), there is no strobing.



#312 of 404 OFFLINE   Vahan_Nisanain

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Posted April 18 2014 - 09:15 PM

 

There is a very specific technical reason that Space: 1999 was shot 25fps rather than 24fps. It's to do with all the live, in-studio video monitors that are so integral to the show. Since the TV monitors were on a 50hz frequency, shooting at 24fps (a different frequency) was causing "strobing" on the monitors (that is why the picture "rolls" on many old TV shows where you see a TV set in the shot). Gerry Anderson discovered, though, that if they shot at 25fps (which is the same frequency as the 50hz monitors), there is no strobing.

 

Sounds like what director Dick Lester did with A Hard Day's Night. The scenes with The Beatles performing for the television cameras were shot in 25fps. That's why in the NTSC version, they sound way too slow, whereas in the PAL version, they sound right. Especially I Should Have Known Better. The first performance sounds correct, and the second one sounds incorrect in NTSC. In PAL, it is the other way around.



#313 of 404 OFFLINE   HDvision

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Posted April 18 2014 - 11:54 PM

Thanks for the heads up. :)

 

EDIT page 33 of the book included with The Professionals Blu-ray set, says the series was shot at 24fps to allow for overseas releases, and that each episode is 50mn30s long. 

 

It means the Blu-ray set are mastered at the correct speed, but still at 25fps 1080i. I've got the feeling the Pal DVD set has them at the exact same lenght, with no speed up then.


Edited by HDvision, April 19 2014 - 01:30 AM.


#314 of 404 OFFLINE   HDvision

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Posted May 28 2014 - 07:25 AM

Some X-Files widescreen vs square comparisons from another forum

 

2x15dvdhdtv1.jpg

2x15dvdhdtv2.jpg



#315 of 404 OFFLINE   Simon Massey

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Posted May 28 2014 - 11:44 AM

Hmm so it isn't even just a straight opening up of the frame - looks like they have had to crop the bottom too.Gets even worse.

#316 of 404 OFFLINE   Vahan_Nisanain

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Posted May 28 2014 - 12:29 PM

They're probably doing this so that they can eliminate unwanted mistakes that had been visible before, like boom mics for example.



#317 of 404 OFFLINE   Simon Massey

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Posted May 28 2014 - 01:27 PM

Sorry but that's rubbish - they are doing it because it wasn't framed for widescreen in the first place. I don't see any boom mics or errors in those shots

#318 of 404 OFFLINE   TravisR

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Posted May 28 2014 - 02:52 PM

Sorry but that's rubbish - they are doing it because it wasn't framed for widescreen in the first place. I don't see any boom mics or errors in those shots

Yeah, if equipment was going to be visible, it would be in the widescreen version.



#319 of 404 OFFLINE   HDvision

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Posted May 28 2014 - 11:01 PM

Season 2 was shot Super 35 so a Super 35 common top approach is taken for the widescreen masters, hence why the bottom is cropped more than the top.

 

These captures demonstrate the series was shot to allow for both formats. Either the cropped on the sides square version, or the full left to right width version, just losing the useless information at the bottom of the frame and a tiny bit on top (that one would have not seen on TV 20 years ago anyway due to overscans).

 

Here's a chart, so that one understand how it works.

 

Super35_and_Techniscope.jpg

 


Edited by HDvision, May 29 2014 - 12:13 AM.


#320 of 404 OFFLINE   Simon Massey

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Posted May 29 2014 - 05:53 AM

I know how Super 35 works.I love how u call the bit at the top and bottom useless information :) isn't that what the bit to the left and right is too ?




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