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The Muppet Christmas Carol: 20th Anniversary Blu-ray Review



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#41 of 68 OFFLINE   jim_falconer

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Posted November 12 2012 - 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein 

Do I need to start removing particular members from this thread?


I'm personally disgusted over the way the conversation has turned

in this thread and the type of sarcastic and borderline ugly remarks

that have been thrown at someone who who's opinion has gone 

against the grain.


Does this warrant members ganging up on an individual that has

an opposing opinion?


Does this mean that the one individual who enjoys the movie as

it is being released has no respect for the filmmaker or their vision?


I didn't expect the level of dialogue here to degrade to the point where

people are afraid to come in here and express an opinion that may

not be popular with others.


HTF was built upon the promise of respectful dialogue between 

members of different opinion.  Once again, I find myself having to step

into a thread where the level of discussion has regressed into something

that should not belong in a forum like this.


Some members, who I have previously approached about this kind of

behavior are back in the driver's seat heading the attack.


It will cease immediately.



I find it amazing that a moderator would actually write a post like this. Why not just come out and say "listen, I agree with TomM, and will not tolerate anything else said". Really Ronald, it is sad to see you putting together a a response like this. Do you not relize that so many of us feel extremely strongly about the cut version Disney put out? I'm really disappointed with you making a post like this. You have always been a fair moderator, and this is exactly the type of post that pulls you out of that position.  Please allow the voices of us that want the full version of the film be heard...



#42 of 68 OFFLINE   Jason_V

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Posted November 12 2012 - 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by jim_falconer 



I find it amazing that a moderator would actually write a post like this. Why not just come out and say "listen, I agree with TomM, and will not tolerate anything else said". Really Ronald, it is sad to see you putting together a a response like this. Do you not release that so many of us feel extremely strongly about the cut version Disney put out? I'm really disappointed with you making a post like this. You have always been a fair moderator, and this is exactly the type of post that pulls you out of that position.  Please allow the voices of us that want the full version of the film be heard...


Okay, now this is funny.  Ron isn't a mod.  He's an owner.  And he and Kevin and Adam can pretty much do whatever they want.

But I'll let him tell you that.


Besides, I don't think that's what Ron said.  He said to make sure ALL opinions are respected and not to jump on anyone with name calling.


It's fine to feel strongly and debate and have a conversation.  It's not fine to make other members feel as though their opinions or likes don't matter or they are being degraded because of them.



#43 of 68 OFFLINE   jim_falconer

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Posted November 12 2012 - 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Jason_V 


Okay, now this is funny.  Ron isn't a mod.  He's an owner.  And he and Kevin and Adam can pretty much do whatever they want.

But I'll let him tell you that.


Besides, I don't think that's what Ron said.  He said to make sure ALL opinions are respected and not to jump on anyone with name calling.


It's fine to feel strongly and debate and have a conversation.  It's not fine to make other members feel as though their opinions or likes don't matter or they are being degraded because of them.

Which is kinda of what is being done to those who are expressing our opinions about this release, eh?



#44 of 68 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted November 12 2012 - 09:15 AM

Quote:
You have always been a fair moderator, and this is exactly the type of post that pulls you out of that position.  Please allow the voices of us that want the full version of the film be heard...



Jim,


I am an owner here.  And you are misunderstanding the point.


I am not suggesting to anyone that they not express their opinions about this release.


What I am very discouraged over is that the minority, who have an opposing opinion

about favoring the theatrical version, are being ganged up upon to the point that it

has been indicated to me that they no longer feel comfortable posting in this forum.


I don't want any member feeling uncomfortable about posting their opinion or

disagreeing with others because they feel they might get ganged up on.


That is what happened in this thread.  


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#45 of 68 OFFLINE   Jason_V

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Posted November 12 2012 - 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by jim_falconer 

Which is kinda of what is being done to those who are expressing our opinions about this release, eh?


No.  Ron is saying to be polite and mindful of the use of words being used.  You can disagree all you want; just do it in a professional way.  Saying someone doesn't respect the filmmaker's original intent because they're okay with the release as is doesn't strike me as particularly mature.  It strikes me as "gee, I'll get one more jab in on this subject."  Everyone has their opinions, which have always historically been welcome here.



#46 of 68 OFFLINE   BJQ1972

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Posted November 12 2012 - 09:34 AM

I'm sure someone has a direct or indirect line to Brian Henson to ask the question.  Instead of going all pitchforks and gloom and doom, let's do some research.  There may be a legit reason for the omission.  (Then again, there may not be one as well.) 

I think this is a very interesting question. I have not been able to find anything online about who made the decision for the edit other than the information about test screenings. There is some debate about the producers making the decision, who I assume include Brian Henson and Frank Oz, but over time I believe that this has morphed into the apocryphal belief that nameless Disney 'Executives' made the decision. I would love to see some links if there are any available.

#47 of 68 OFFLINE   Kevin Martinez

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Posted November 12 2012 - 09:55 AM

You know what, none of this really matters. The Muppets have been Disney's red-headed stepchild for years (STILL waiting on the last seasons of the Muppet Show). Expecting them to do right by this was probably too much to hope for.

#48 of 68 OFFLINE   jim_falconer

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Posted November 12 2012 - 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein 


Jim,


I am an owner here.  And you are misunderstanding the point.


I am not suggesting to anyone that they not express their opinions about this release.


What I am very discouraged over is that the minority, who have an opposing opinion

about favoring the theatrical version, are being ganged up upon to the point that it

has been indicated to me that they no longer feel comfortable posting in this forum.


I don't want any member feeling uncomfortable about posting their opinion or

disagreeing with others because they feel they might get ganged up on.


That is what happened in this thread.  

Ron, I do not mean to disparage here, but I find it unsettling for you to allow a post glowingly reflecting a sub-par release, but then bashing someone saying this release is not right. If anything , you should be advocating peoples expressions of disappointment in this release. It's tiring to to see people, saying that any objections are "fire and brimstone". Come on, that is really underneath intelligent conversation. I personally have nothing against TomH beleaf that the current release is great. But what I find annoying is him saying that Disney did such a great job on cutting out a scene that means so much to the film.



#49 of 68 OFFLINE   Ronald Epstein

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Posted November 12 2012 - 10:18 AM

Jim,


There is not going to be continued debate on this decision.


You and I are not going to spend time going back and forth

arguing these points.


All opinions are welcome on HTF as long as they don't turn into

one person's continued agenda of forcing that opinion on others.
I don't believe that was the case here.


What I am addressing is the fact that individuals were made

to feel very uncomfortable for expressing an opinion that was

against the grain of others.


And if you are referring to TomM, unless I am missing something,

I don't believe his exact words were "Disney did such a great job

on cutting out a scene that means so much to the film"  In fact,

in post #8 he did a very nice job of explaining what he meant, even

stating he was making a half-serious comment about the situation,

and even offering an apology to anyone that might have been offended.


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#50 of 68 OFFLINE   Tom M

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Posted November 12 2012 - 05:45 PM

First, I would like to thank Ron for helping to clear the air here. You're great! :)

I personally have nothing against TomH beleaf that the current release is great. But what I find annoying is him saying that Disney did such a great job on cutting out a scene that means so much to the film.

I said no such thing. I said I was impressed with the musical editing of the scene, meaning the soundtrack NOT the editing of the content of the scene. I also said I thought the removal of the song hurt the scene. The dialogue in the scene makes it clear that Scrooge is beginning to place money over all else. Belle's song acts as a counterpoint, she sings of the emotional riches Scrooge will be giving up by staying on his current path. The reprise of the song at the movie's end lets us know that Scrooge has finally found emotional wealth. See, I get it, I understand it. I just don't think it's worth getting angry or upset over. I also feel the movie is still very enjoyable without the song. If anyone does not want to ever see the theatrical cut and boycott this release, that's fine. I respect that decision even if I don't agree with it. I just ask that those people respect my decision to enjoy the movie in it's theatrical cut. This is far from the first musical to have a song removed that people argue over it's merit. "Cool Considerate Men" from 1776 ignites similar discussion. Discussion in the 1776 thread was much more polite though. I always support the filmmaker's vision. If Disney decides to release the director's cut of Muppet CC I will happily re-purchase. Untill then I will enjoy the current Blu-Ray. I would encourage those who feel strongly about the song inclusion to keep on Disney about it in polite constructive ways (phone, e-mail, etc.) and keep it up all through next year. Who knows? Disney might just get the message. If there's one thing I learned having survived a hurricane and a nor'easter over the past two weeks is to enjoy what I have, not worry about what I don't, and to never sweat the small stuff. A deleted scenes section would be great. Especially if it included the other two songs cut from the film. Again, maybe next year. Also, It's Tom M not H. ;)
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#51 of 68 OFFLINE   Kevin Martinez

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Posted November 13 2012 - 02:33 AM

I lived through Hurricanes Rita and Ike and I fully support criticizing Disney for releasing the censored version of Muppet Christmas Carol. The future of Muppets on home video must be really bleak if they couldn't even do right by this movie. I weep for the Jim Henson-era stuff.

#52 of 68 OFFLINE   Tom M

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Posted November 13 2012 - 07:29 AM

I lived through Hurricanes Rita and Ike and I fully support criticizing Disney for releasing the censored version of Muppet Christmas Carol.The future of Muppets on home video must be really bleak if they couldn't even do right by this movie. I weep for the Jim Henson-era stuff.

I NEVER suggested Disney shouldn't be critized. My above comment about the recent natural disasters applies strictly to me, myself and I. These events just re-affirmed life lessons I learned along ago. I dunno. I've made it clear I support BOTH cuts of the movie. I've made it clear I support opposite opinions. I've made it clear I support campaigns to restore the song. For me, Muppet CC is much more than 3 minutes of a cut song. For me, there is still much joy, warmth, and just plain FUN to be had. For those that don't see it that way, fine but be polite and respectful when expressing why you feel the way you do. "It's not hard, it's easy if you try." ;)
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#53 of 68 OFFLINE   BJQ1972

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Posted November 13 2012 - 07:36 AM

I NEVER suggested Disney shouldn't be critized. My above comment about the recent natural disasters applies strictly to me, myself and I. These events just re-affirmed life lessons I learned along ago. I dunno. I've made it clear I support BOTH cuts of the movie. I've made it clear I support opposite opinions. I've made it clear I support campaigns to restore the song. What more do some of you want? There is much more to Muppet CC than 3 minutes of cut footage. There is still much joy, warmth and good feelings in the theatrical cut. I refuse to change my opinion nor for enjoyng the hell of the movie in ANY form. Again, I RESPECT the opposite opinion. But spewing anger and vile does nothing. Again, what's wrong with something like, "Glad you enjoyed it. Wish I could. I'll wait for the version I like." I'll leave for now. I'll keep an eye on this thread. When people want to discuss the situation, or better yet, the current Blu-Ray, like mature adults, I'll come back.

My view exactly. I think Ronald's comments were somehow lost in translation. I don't think he was siding with anybody or saying that we shouldn't disagree. I thought he was saying that the normal adult way to disagree is to state your argument rationally. Saying things like - to paraphrase - you people with ADD can stick to your kiddie versions - is not what I would call a rational argument.

#54 of 68 OFFLINE   EdHoch

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Posted November 15 2012 - 04:28 PM

I'm disappointed that Disney decided not to include both versions of the film on this Blu Ray release. Given the length of the film, and the greater capacity of the Blu Ray disc, I would think it would have been a relatively simple option to provide. Don't they realize that they would sell more copies as a result? The purists who want the directors cut could watch their version, and folks who were fine with the version released in theaters could watch their version. Personally, I will, as I do every year, break out my old pan and scan DVD version. (I know! Pan and Scan...sacrelige!) When it coes down to it, for me, the STORY is the most important thing about a film...moreso than even anamorphic widescreen! The story of Muppet Christmas Carol is better when the "When Love is Gone" song is included. It informs and supports the Scrooge character arc. It even has the counterpoint song "When Love is Found" at the end of the film. Perhaps there will be a 25th Anniversary release that will include both versions...one can only hope!
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#55 of 68 OFFLINE   cafink

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Posted November 16 2012 - 12:56 AM

I, too, will be watching the complete version of The Muppet Christmas Carol this holiday season--in widescreen, on laserdisc. It's sad that in 2012, the best way to watch this movie is still on a freaking laserdisc.
 

 


#56 of 68 OFFLINE   Tom M

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Posted November 17 2012 - 05:05 AM

You know, I'm staring to suspect Disney might have instituted a policy of "theatrical cut only" for home video. At least for family films. It would explain not only Muppet CC but Pocahontas as well. Pocahontas at least HAS it's deleted song, in full HD, as a bonus. We didn't even get that with the Muppets. :confused: BTW, I saw the DVD the other day and noticed the 4:3 version has been removed. The disc is widescreen only. This is what started me thinking about the policy thing. Still, maybe next year Disney will include the song in some form. I'd like to see the other two deleted songs as well.
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#57 of 68 OFFLINE   cafink

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Posted November 17 2012 - 08:09 AM

Which DVD version did you see, Tom? My understanding is that the DVD included in Amazon's Blu-ray combo pack is the exact same disc as the last DVD release (the "Kermit's 50th Anniversary" edition), including both the widescreen theatrical version and the fullscreen extended version. I know there's also a new DVD release this year corresponding to the new Blu-ray, but I'd assumed that that was also just a repackaging of the last release, because otherwise, wouldn't Disney be more likely to include the new version in the combo pack? As for the other two deleted songs ("Room in Your Heart" and "Chairman of the Board"), they were never actually filmed, as far as I know. They're on the soundtrack album, so that's about all one could expect Disney to do with them.
 

 


#58 of 68 OFFLINE   Tom M

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Posted November 17 2012 - 09:22 AM

Which DVD version did you see, Tom? My understanding is that the DVD included in Amazon's Blu-ray combo pack is the exact same disc as the last DVD release (the "Kermit's 50th Anniversary" edition), including both the widescreen theatrical version and the fullscreen extended version. I know there's also a new DVD release this year corresponding to the new Blu-ray, but I'd assumed that that was also just a repackaging of the last release, because otherwise, wouldn't Disney be more likely to include the new version in the combo pack? As for the other two deleted songs ("Room in Your Heart" and "Chairman of the Board"), they were never actually filmed, as far as I know. They're on the soundtrack album, so that's about all one could expect Disney to do with them.

I saw the new DVD in a store and, out of curiosity, looked at the back and the specs did not list the 4:3 version. So, I'm guessing it's the theatrical cut only. I haven't looked at the DVD in the combo pack. If it is the older disc, then Disney might just be burning off the older discs. I'll check mine later and see what's on it. As for the other two deleted songs if they weren't filmed then perhaps both could be reconstructed using storyboards or original drawings. Either way, it would be interesting to see what would've been.
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#59 of 68 OFFLINE   Rick Thompson

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Posted November 18 2012 - 12:17 PM

The other disk is a digital copy that you have to activate via the web. Since I dispose of digital copies (either giveaway or trashaway), I'm using that hub for my DVD of the alternate version (with song).

#60 of 68 OFFLINE   cafink

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Posted November 18 2012 - 02:04 PM

I saw the new DVD in a store and, out of curiosity, looked at the back and the specs did not list the 4:3 version. So, I'm guessing it's the theatrical cut only.

The Blu-ray + DVD combo pack actually says the same thing about the DVD, listing it only as widescreen, despite the fact that it actually includes both versions.
 

 






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