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Will Blu-Ray support UltraHD? Would you buy a UltraHD TV and a new Blu-Ray player?


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#1 of 76

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Posted October 25 2012 - 06:51 AM

This week we had Panasonic and Andy Parsons from the BDA host a dinner for the HTF Meet in LA.

One of the topics that came up during a talk that Andy gave was support for UltraHD in Blu-ray.  Andy instilled some hope that the BDA is actually looking at future formats by forming a new group called the "Format Extensions Study Task Force".  I thought the DVD Forum had long names for groups.  At any rate, it is a group "that looks at ways to extend the format (Blu-ray) to add new functions and technologies that are being introduced over time."  When asked if that would include UltraHD, or as Andy referred to it as "4K", hand said "It is clearly one of the things we have to look at".


Doing a lot of work in the the DVD Forum, this does not mean that UltraHD will be supported, but it is inspiring to see that it is at least being investigated.

Here's to UltraHD on future Blu-ray players.


How would UltraHD/2160P/Quad HD/ 4K fit on a 50gb disc?  Andy referred to new codecs that are emerging as a way to potentially allow that to happen.


After going to the Dolby facility and seeing Dolby's glassless 3D prototype display, I have discovered a real use for UltraHD sets.  I think UltraHD used for glassless 3D is the ticket and is something that would propel HD 3D into more consumers actually using the technology.


Would you buy a UltraHD TV and new Blu-Ray player?



#2 of 76 lukejosephchung

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Posted October 25 2012 - 06:58 AM

I've seen 4k video at this past January's CES and am convinced that it's the next level in home theater entertainment...when the products arrive at reasonable price levels, I will be investing in them...Posted Image



#3 of 76 Brandon Conway

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Posted October 25 2012 - 06:58 AM

I'm sure that within 15 years I'd probably get a capable player and monitor by default. But the software? No. I'm done with the upgrading. Blu-ray 1080p is the FINAL purchase for me for catalog titles.


"And now the reprimand, from an American critic. He reproaches me for using film as a sacred & lasting medium, like a painting or a book. He does not believe that filmmaking is an inferior art, but he believes, and quite rightly, that a reel goes quickly, that the public are looking above all for relaxation, that film is fragile and that it is pretentious to express the power of one's soul by such ephemeral and delicate means, that Charlie Chaplin's or Buster Keaton's first films can only be seen on very rare and badly spoiled prints. I add that the cinema is making daily progress and that eventually films that we consider marvelous today will soon be forgotten because of new dimensions & colour. This is true. But for 4 weeks this film [The Blood of a Poet] has been shown to audiences that have been so attentive, so eager & so warm, that I wonder after all there is not an anonymous public who are looking for more than relaxation in the cinema." - Jean Cocteau, 1932


#4 of 76 Worth

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Posted October 25 2012 - 07:13 AM

If price were no object and I were in the market for a projector, I'd probably consider it, but otherwise I don't really see the point of 4K for home theatre - but then, 3D doesn't interest me. Aside from large format films - IMAX, 70mm, Vistavision etc. - I'm not sure how much benefit 4K would be, even if you had a large enough screen to theoretically take advantage of it. 4K is still very much the exception in post-production, and I'm not convinced that there's actually 4K of detail in 35mm films made prior to about the late-90s.
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#5 of 76 Dr Griffin

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Posted October 25 2012 - 10:39 AM

I've watched some Blu-ray disc movies in my home that looked better than when I saw them in the theater. So, no, no more software upgrading for me either. Maybe within 5 years I would buy a Blu-ray player that would upscale to the latest technology. I will go to my grave with the Blu-ray of Gone With The Wind as my final purchase of that movie (among others).

#6 of 76 Douglas Monce

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Posted October 25 2012 - 03:53 PM

Having just seen Raiders of the Lost Ark in 4k on a 75 foot screen, I thought it looked just amazing, and would probably not have known it wasn't film if I hadn't been told so. Having said that, unless I was going to build a home theater with at least a 15 foot screen, I can't see the point in 4k at home. Doug
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#7 of 76 FoxyMulder

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Posted October 25 2012 - 11:08 PM

4K will require the major studio's who wish to release content to invest in new 4K scans of their film catalogue, i'm all for it for that reason alone, i just have my doubts about using a 50GB disc, since this will likely require a new player than just give us a larger capacity new format or a disc that is backward compatible with blu ray.


Of course Sony have been doing 4K scans for some time now, i think they are well prepared, some studio's will need to invest though.


4K projectors will mean better fill factor thus the pixel structure will be less visible for LCD projection, Panasonic will be able to retire their smooth screen technology, it's not just about seating distance to make the best of 4K, other factors come into play, 4K will get us closer to the original source, my big concern is they will try and use 50GB discs when they could use newer tech and give us much larger capacity, larger capacity means less compression, i'd like any new 4K disc based format to give us not just superior image resolution but more sound channels, we are already seeing a few discs released with Dts Neo X 11.1 channel sound, i'd like to see Dolby Atmos for this new format and more speakers, obviously it would be back compatible for those with 5.1 or 7.1 speakers and we'd new AV Receivers for any new sound format.


Indeed why use discs, explore other means ( not streaming ) of releasing the content, it will use disc because Sony's 4K capable Playstation 4 ( Orbis ) will be disc based, the bottom line is that since we need to buy new players to get any of this 4K software then why not just make a brand new format which is backwards compatible with blu ray, link it to blu ray by name, call it Ultra Bluray or whatever, they can enhance it with new improved codecs and new tech which gives us 300GB discs or maybe even larger capacity, things have come on a lot since blu ray was invented and i'd like to see use made of new technology when 4K hits the marketplace.


I know some films won't show a notable image improvement over 1080p but i see the display improvements worth it, less visible pixel structure is always welcome.


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#8 of 76 Yorkshire

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Posted October 25 2012 - 11:18 PM

I suspect I'm the wrong person to ask, as my initial reaction to Blu-ray Disc/HD DVD was to say I saw no need for High Def. So take the following comments with a pinch of salt. I see no need for 4k. We're already at a stage where, for some films, 1080p HD is not a huge upgrade in detail over SD. Blu-ray Disc is already capable of giving a very film-like appearence. I suspect that any improvements in UHD over HD would only be visible on projectyor systems. Blu-ray Disc appears to be just about managing to break through. Will their be a big enough market for UHD? We're already comnplaining that some studios aren't giving their Blu-ray Discs the attention that 1080p HD deserves. If we see no sign of them improving, I can just see a whole load of films coming out where people say "I sdon't see the point in upgrading my Blu-ray Disc). But I'm probably wrong. Like last time. Steve W
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#9 of 76 OliverK

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Posted October 25 2012 - 11:27 PM

New 3D versions will be what drives 4k displays and when the displays are coming in bigger numbers it will only be natural to ask for software that takes advantage of the additional resolution. Other than that I see a lot of scepticism even among home theater enthusiasts, there are just not that many who think they would benefit from 4k. With 20/20 vision 4k will also be the final resolution increase that we will need up to a seating distance of about 1 screen width away so with that being implemented I hope that the focus will shift to other areas like bit depth, color space, refresh rate and finally chroma resolution.

#10 of 76 Mr645

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Posted October 26 2012 - 12:19 AM

At this point unless my Samsung DLP fails, I would wait for a 4K display as my next TV. I would look for a substantial upgrade. As for BluRay, I really don't see a reason for the format to move forward to UHD/4K. I think the 4.875" plastic disc has reached it's end. Just like the cassette and formats before, it's time to simply move to streaming content, probably phone/pad based. You buy, make, edit, shoot a video and it's your to play on any device, anytime, anywhere. It's a few years away, but so is UHD software and hardware. That's where I think we're going to go.

#11 of 76 Todd H

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Posted October 26 2012 - 03:47 AM

Bring on 4K Blu-ray and sets! No way in the age of bandwidth caps we'll be streaming QUALITY 4K video any time in the near future. Heck, on a large screen streamed 1080P doesn't compare to high bitrate Blu-ray. Plus, we still can't get lossless audio via streaming.

#12 of 76 Worth

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Posted October 26 2012 - 03:52 AM

While I can see why the electronics manufacturers would be enthusiastic about this, I can't see why the studios would be. Why invest in a new video format to sell, at best, a few thousand copies? Especially when it's just cannibalizing blu-ray sales.
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#13 of 76 schan1269

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Posted October 26 2012 - 03:58 AM

Maybe, just maybe... 4K movies will be released on 2 discs. Or, even better, we get "double sided" BD. We all(well some of us) remember that from the days of LD. What would stop the studios/CE from releasing 4K BD in that fashion? This isn't 198X(whatever year it was, not looking it up). Today a BD player could be made with a "buffer" where it runs ahead of what you actually see, then when it came time to "swap sides" of the disc, we don't have to have a break in the movie. Sure, a "double sided" BD disc would require a new player...but oh wait, 4K requires a new player anyway...

#14 of 76 FoxyMulder

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Posted October 26 2012 - 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by schan1269 

Sure, a "double sided" BD disc would require a new player...but oh wait, 4K requires a new player anyway...


This is what they need to develop further, much larger capacity and ideal for less compressed 4K. Unfortunately it seems to have cost issues.


http://en.wikipedia...._Versatile_Disc


Current optical storage saves one bit per pulse, and the HVD alliance hopes to improve this efficiency with capabilities of around 60,000 bits per pulse in an inverted, truncated cone shape that has a 200 μm diameter at the bottom and a 500 μm diameter at the top. High densities are possible by moving these closer on the tracks: 100 GB at 18 μm separation, 200 GB at 13 μm, 500 GB at 8 μm, and most demonstrated of 5 TB for 3 μm on a 10 cm disc. The system uses a green laser, with an output power of 1 watt which is high power for a consumer device laser. Possible solutions include improving the sensitivity of the polymer used, or developing and commoditizing a laser capable of higher power output while being suitable for a consumer unit.

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"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

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#15 of 76 schan1269

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Posted October 26 2012 - 04:23 AM

I know there are numerous "formations" of disc out there...this HVD you link, there is also UDO and SVOD(the most likely candidate). Regardless...using "existing" BD to 50GB would work for most any 4K movie under 90 minutes*. There have been plans(although numerous countries, including the US don't allow consumer devices with two laser types) to create a "dual laser" player. So, you "could" create a SVOD** player capable of playing BD as well. The roadblock is allowing two laser drives in one unit. *Yes I know "time" of a movie is irrelevant when it comes to actual disc space. However I did read, somewhere, that 90-ish minutes at 4K is typical for 50gb. **SVOD, last I checked, is too far removed from DVD and BD to be useful. BD laser was developed to read DVD as well. Getting into "hyper data" discs removes backward compatibility.

#16 of 76 Billy Batson

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Posted October 26 2012 - 04:42 AM

Well you can't blame them for trying, but isn't the world almost broke, arn't most people struggling, has 3D really caught on? Blu-ray is still trying to find a solid place in the market, & how many catalogue releases would be available? I think they should really let the present format play out before the next "new & improved" product arrives. You go into the average house & see how they've got their telly set up! Ultra HD would make no difference. Look at the lovely CD, it may be struggling a bit now, but it's been going for thirty years!

#17 of 76 Chuck Anstey

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Posted October 26 2012 - 05:00 AM

My only quibble with the discussion around seating distance / screen size is that the ratios being put forward are where people with 20/20 vision can actually see each individual pixel and could with effort read unscaled high contrast text. There is a much further range where people can detect that there is a difference between 2K and 4K even when they cannot resolve each individual pixel. Now how valuable that is to the general public is fodder for debate and I do agree that for most living room setups with typical screen sizes and typical viewing distances they are back far enough that 4K is only mildly perceptible. A more significant improvement for TV displays would be if they simply had true 8-bit color rather than 6-bits with the last two bits faked. This is where projectors win over all but professional displays.

#18 of 76 lukejosephchung

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Posted October 26 2012 - 05:12 AM

Sony announced back in may that they'd already developed a 128 GB-capacity 5-inch optical disc format...this will be their likely vehicle for the 4k video format on physical media...Posted Image



#19 of 76 Worth

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Posted October 26 2012 - 05:19 AM

Sony announced back in may that they'd already developed a 128 GB-capacity 5-inch optical disc format...this will be their likely vehicle for the 4k video format on physical media...:tu:

Sony's barely releasing titles on blu-ray - even sizeable hits like As Good as it Gets are being farmed out to the likes of Twilight Time. I just can't see them pushing a format that's only going to appeal to a niche of a niche.
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#20 of 76 lukejosephchung

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Posted October 26 2012 - 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by Worth 


Sony's barely releasing titles on blu-ray - even sizeable hits like As Good as it Gets are being farmed out to the likes of Twilight Time. I just can't see them pushing a format that's only going to appeal to a niche of a niche.

You've been living under a rock for the last six or seven years if you consider blu-ray to still be a niche product...Posted Image






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