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Alpine SWR-1023D or SWR-1223D DIY Sub for HT Use


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#1 of 34 OFFLINE   BraveHeart123

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Posted October 19 2012 - 11:23 AM

Between these DVC Alpine subs (2 Ohms each coil), which one will serve music or (mid bass in movies i.e. 50 - 90hz) better both in terms of SQ and SPL?? I will power the best between these two through Crown XLS pro amp. Crown outputs 1100 watts at 4 ohms in bridged mode. I will hook up the DVC in serial to make it 4 ohm. Actually, I want to replace my current DIY (Pinoeer) with Alpine. As, the box I built for Pioneer is far from perfect and also it has 4 ohms voice coils. So, parallel or serial connectivity gives either 2 or 8 ohms load to the amp, which isn't compatible with Crown. Though I still get tremendous puch with Pio at 2 ohms hookup in movies and music, but I fear I will fry my amp. Another gripe with Pio car subs is that they have very less xMax compared to Alpines, which offer almost twice the linear excursion as Pios. So, I wana do it absolutely right this time. I am using WinISD Pro Alpha latest version for sub box simulation. Both models have their T/S parameters pubilshed in the owner's manual on Alpine website. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

#2 of 34 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted October 19 2012 - 11:34 AM

it has 4 ohms voice coils. So, parallel or serial connectivity gives either 2 or 8 ohms load to the amp, which isn't compatible with Crown.

I assume that sound comes out of the Pioneer sub so it is compatible. No, you don't get the full potential of the amp but if the new sub is less sensitive then you are moving backwards (maybe).

Between these DVC Alpine subs (2 Ohms each coil), which one will serve music or (mid bass in movies i.e. 50 - 90hz) better both in terms of SQ and SPL??

The 12". It's not only be Klippel tested so that a 3rd party has confirmed the T/S parameters, it has been used a numerous home theaters successfully. Plus it is bigger. Subs are about moving air.

#3 of 34 OFFLINE   BraveHeart123

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Posted October 19 2012 - 11:43 AM

Some how I knew, u wud come to my rescue :) I hope u know my HT setup as you were also there in another thread. I want a bigger chest slam than what pioneer is offereing. I simply want tigher and larger bass in 50-90hz region. Do you think 12 incher Alp will serve my purpose better than Pio?? I was trying to simulate sealed box for Alpine SWR-1223D in WinISD Pro Alpha, but it gives an error in Qes, Qms, and Qts values when I try and load the driver parameters into WinISD database. I just cannot upload the parameters. Although, I stuck in the same values published in the user manual. Any idea what wrong am I doing??

#4 of 34 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted October 19 2012 - 01:36 PM

If you have Excel, I find Unibox to be easier to work with. It's these tricky little things that pushed me away from WinISD.

#5 of 34 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted October 19 2012 - 01:38 PM

If you have questions about WinISD, they have a Facebook page and the developer will answer questions.

#6 of 34 OFFLINE   BraveHeart123

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Posted October 20 2012 - 08:01 AM

I figured out the problem. Thanks anyway. I need some clarification on the following;


  • When a DVC car sub is rated as 500 watts rms, what does it mean and how to interpret it?
  • Does it mean we have to connect the dual voice coils in parallel to get 500 watts rms or connecting in parallel would give 1000 watts rms and peak value will also double??


#7 of 34 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted October 20 2012 - 07:15 PM

1. That's how much power the sub can take for a period of time determined by the manufacturer (somewhere between 1 and 30 minutes) before the driver has a thermal failure. Thermal failure is when the adhesives give and the voice coil unwinds or the solder joints break down. 2. You can connect the coils in series or parallel to get the 500w RMS. DVC drivers should not rate each coil. Or at least quality manufacturers don't. My QVC (quad voice coil) is rated at 1,000w. Basically, each coil is rated at 250w. It's really all about the temperature. What that RMS rating doesn't tell you is the excursion limits. That's why we model speakers in software. In a large enclosure, that 500w RMS speaker will probably reach its mechanical limits with much less than 500w when fed a 20hz signal. 99% of the time, that thermal rating is determined using a 1,000hz signal. On the other hand, if you go to You Tube and check out videos from Sundown Audio, you can see how they torture test their drivers. That doesn't help you since you can't get them but at least it shows you how a reputable company does their testing.

#8 of 34 OFFLINE   BraveHeart123

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Posted October 21 2012 - 12:24 AM

I had a friend of mine buy Behringer EP4000 and um building him a mid-bass module to work in tandem with DefTech SuperCube Reference sub to cover 50-90Hz. SCRef will cover below 50Hz spectrum till as low as it goes. I figured SCRef is very slow 60Hz and above and has flabby bass.

For a DIY mid-bass module, I have following options available here in Alpine and Pioneer;

  • Pioneer TS-W3002D4 & TS-W3002D2 (Both 12 inches drivers with 1000 watts RMS and 3500 watts Peak)
  • Alpine SWR-1223D & SWR-1243D (Both 12 inches drivers with 600 watts RMS and 1800 watts Peak)

Which single dvc sub will work best with Behringer EP4000 and in what configuration i.e. 2 ohm, 4 ohm, serial/parallel connection???
Also, I have 10 inch versions available in these models. For tigher bass, shall I go with 10 inch or 12 inch driver??


You can connect the coils in series or parallel to get the 500w RMS.


So, does it mean the parallel or serial connection of voice coils does not double or halve the RMS power rating of the sub and it just doubles or halves the impedence?

Also, does the sub (based on how its voice coils are connected within) decide how much power it will pull from the amplifier no matter how potent the amp is???

Let's say, I connect the DVC of a 1000 watts RMS Pioneer TS-W3002D4 in 2 ohm parallel configuration, will it still pull 1000 watts from Behringer EP4000 at 2 ohms, though it offers 2000 watts per channel at 2 ohms???

#9 of 34 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted October 21 2012 - 03:59 PM

Those are the Alpine models with the 2.5" voice coil? What size is the coil on the Pioneer? If it is a 3" then I suggest you go with the Alpine. Why? Lower inductance. Since you are going with a mid-bass module, that is right where the higher inductance of a larger coil will impact the sound quality. And go with the 12". Woofer size should not have any impact on the quality of sound but a larger cone will have a better sensitivity.

So, does it mean the parallel or serial connection of voice coils does not double or halve the RMS power rating of the sub and it just doubles or halves the impedence?

Correct. Power ratings are with both coils combined. Only once have I seen a dual voice coil sub that was designed to only have one coil receive power. That's the Atlas model driver from Ascendant Audio. It had a 4 ohm coil that received power and a 2 ohm coil that was designed to adjust the Qes of the driver. You could leave it open, short it closed or add a resistor to change the Qes to your desired result. Turns out that the majority of the buyers weren't that smart and just wired up the sub like any DVC sub. I have a pair of 12's.

Also, does the sub (based on how its voice coils are connected within) decide how much power it will pull from the amplifier no matter how potent the amp is???

Subs don't "pull" power. Think of the power wire to the sub as a water pipe. The impedance of the driver is a valve. The lower the impedance, the more water (current) is able to flow through. Push too much and the valve blows (blown sub).

Let's say, I connect the DVC of a 1000 watts RMS Pioneer TS-W3002D4 in 2 ohm parallel configuration, will it still pull 1000 watts from Behringer EP4000 at 2 ohms, though it offers 2000 watts per channel at 2 ohms???

The maximum peak power at 1,000 hz the Behringer can push through a single channel with a 2 ohm load will be 2,000 watts. If you bridge the amp into 2 ohms, you will blow the amp up. If you wire the sub in series for 8 ohms, the most power at 1,000hz you can get from a single channel is ??? (look it up in the manual). I keep saying at 1,000hz because that's the rated power. If you have it driving a sub or MBM, then you will get about 60% of the power. Ignore the peak power and focus on RMS. Most subs can take peaks much larger than their rated power. That's how these SPL cars can have subs that take 1/2 second of 20,000 watts at 50hz. They can't do that many times without requiring a recone but they do it.

#10 of 34 OFFLINE   BraveHeart123

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Posted October 22 2012 - 08:29 PM

I can't find any info on the size of the voice coils of Pioneers. So, what you are implying is ..... the smaller the size of voice coils; the better the SQ. Coz it offers less inductance??? Also, what is the perfect match between a sub and an amp's RMS output with the sub having resultant 2 ohm or 4 ohm serial connection??

#11 of 34 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted October 23 2012 - 03:04 AM

So, what you are implying is ..... the smaller the size of voice coils; the better the SQ. Coz it offers less inductance???

Yes. Unless the manufacturer has put some kind of inductance lowering technology into the motor structure like copper shorting rings. Also, underhung motor designs will always have lower inductance due to their shorter coil windings. It's all covered here - http://www.diy-audio...WooferSpeed.pdf

Also, what is the perfect match between a sub and an amp's RMS output with the sub having resultant 2 ohm or 4 ohm serial connection??

There is very little chance you will use the full potential of a 4 ohm load on a pro amp much less the full potential of a 2 ohm load. And the difference between the potential output is less than 3db on paper. Probably closer to 1db in the real world when you factor in thermal compression. In a blind listening test, you will not notice the difference.

#12 of 34 OFFLINE   BraveHeart123

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Posted October 23 2012 - 04:03 AM

There is very little chance you will use the full potential of a 4 ohm load on a pro amp much less the full potential of a 2 ohm load. And the difference between the potential output is less than 3db on paper. Probably closer to 1db in the real world when you factor in thermal compression. In a blind listening test, you will not notice the difference.


Sorry kinda lost here. Didn't understand it. Does it mean a pro amp cannot fully power a 2 or 4ohm load regardless of whether the pro amp is stable down to 2 ohms??

You mean SPL output between 2 and 4 ohms is negligible??

#13 of 34 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted October 23 2012 - 06:19 AM

You mean SPL output between 2 and 4 ohms is negligible??

Yes.

#14 of 34 OFFLINE   BraveHeart123

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Posted October 23 2012 - 07:49 AM

OK, thanx. I will resume the thread once I crack on with the diy sub.

#15 of 34 OFFLINE   BraveHeart123

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Posted October 26 2012 - 11:00 AM

Following are the T/S parameters of Pioneer and Alpine drivers;

http://www.hometheat.../350/height/700

The available wattage from Crown XLS1000 in bridged mode is 1100 watts at 4 ohms. Also, I want a flat response max SPL from 40Hz to 100hz.

Can u pls help me with sub dimensions and type i.e. sealed or ported??

#16 of 34 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted October 27 2012 - 06:14 AM

Since you only want to play down to 40 hz, the enclosure size has very little impact. I'd go with a 1 cubic foot net box.

#17 of 34 OFFLINE   BraveHeart123

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Posted October 27 2012 - 12:19 PM

I already tried one cubic foot box u helped me with earlier this year, but it was way below par in performance.

#18 of 34 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted October 28 2012 - 04:12 PM

If you model the sub in Unibox, you will notice that changes in the enclosure size make less and less difference the higher the frequency.

#19 of 34 OFFLINE   BraveHeart123

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Posted November 15 2012 - 08:56 PM

Hi Robert, i sorted out the box modelling issue pretty much. I need some info on external amps as my wife is travelling to US for a week and I have the opportunity to get Crown XLS-2500 from US or I can buy Behringer EP4000 from here. Since you already have Berry ep2500 that is essentially the same amp under new hood, so you can guide me better. I am already using crown xls-1000 and it is fantastic for a medium sized room like mine. But I am running it in 4 ohm bridged mono, so I'm pretty much stuck with using just one diy sub with it. It doesn't have enough wattage in stereo for anything above 500 watts sub. The XLS2500 has 1550 watts at 2 ohms per channel with both channel driven simultaneously and 2500 watts at 4 ohms bridged. So I can easily add another DIY sub down the lane. A reviewer on amazon bench tested Crown XLS-1000 and clocked over 220 watts per channel at 8 ohms which is actually above the rated power of 215 wpc at 8 ohms. So, crown is pretty much dead on in terms of their power ratings. Also I was reading about behringer amps, a reviewer said berrys lack the hard puch but they are very loud in sub 30hz region. To cut short the story.......which amp do u suggest and why?? Crown XLS2500 OR Behringer EP4000???

#20 of 34 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted November 16 2012 - 10:20 AM

If I had the money for a Crown, I'd get a Crown. My hobby money is split among different things with home theater only getting about 1/3. That's why I went with Behringer instead of Crown, QSC or one of the many other quality amps.




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