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Paradigm Sub 25 vs. Paradigm Sub 1 (And more Paradigm Questions)


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#1 of 13 Blackdevil77

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Posted January 27 2012 - 03:52 AM

My first question is regarding 2 Paradigm subs that are very similar in cost, by seem vastly different in design. The Sub 25 using a single 15" driver and the Sub 1 using six 8" drivers. They would be used for both music and movies pretty evenly. Which of these 2 subs would you guys say comes out on top? Which one offers a cleaner, tighter sound with more punch? Which has more rumble? Which has more output? Is one better for music then movies or vice versa? Size and weight isn't an issue, my biggest concern is the sound. Anybody here hear both of these? Also, I've been looking at an upgrade from my current set up and have been putting components together not so much based on a budget, but on what I want to see how much it would cost in the end, then to determine how long it will take me to get there. I've been looking at the Signature series speakers. I was looking at the Studio's at first, but I keep hearing that the Signature series sound significantly better then the studio series, especially with their beryllium tweeters. My question is, do you think the S8 is worth the extra cost if the system will be used with a subwoofer, or would the S6 do fine with a sub? The price jump is pretty substantial from the S6 to the S8 from what I have read. As of now I plan on this being a 5.1 system, using a Parasound A51 amp, which I'm sure should power these beauties nicely. Basically what I want is a system that can play very loud, AND very VERY clear. I like my music and movies loud (my poor ears) so the only time's they would be played and low volumes is when I have to be considerate for other people in the house (or sometimes in my case, the neighborhood) lol. I listen to ALL types of music, with the exception of screaming death metal and dub step. Those are probably the only 2 genre's I don't care much for.

#2 of 13 Robert_J

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Posted January 27 2012 - 05:06 AM

Which of these 2 subs would you guys say comes out on top?

What is your criteria for judging? Bass is about moving air and six 8's have more cone area than a single 15" On the other hand, cone area isn't the be-all end-all of drivers. You need to also look at driver excursion and neither sub mentions that. Now, the Sub 1 has opposed drivers and will therefore cancel vibrations.

Which one offers a cleaner, tighter sound with more punch?

The biggest determining factor in this is your room and the sub's location in the room.

Which has more output?

See answer to question 1.

Is one better for music then movies or vice versa?

This type of thinking bugs the mess out of me. Why can't people want an ACCURATE sub. Accuracy means that the sub will reproduce any input signal as the recording engineer intended it to sound whether it be music or movie special effects.

Anybody here hear both of these?

Haven't heard both. I've never heard a Paradigm sub. In fact, I've heard few retail subs. None have the specs that impress me. Same with these. The Sub 1 looks impressive with a 12 hz extension but they have an asterisk beside it. First it is in-room extension. Second, the -3 db point gives no upper end reference nor does it give a max output. Same with the 9 hz extension on the Sub25.

Basically what I want is a system that can play very loud, AND very VERY clear.

I think both may satisfy you but they are expensive. http://www.epiksubwo...dualempire.html has an MSRP of 1/2 the price of the Sub 25 while having 4 times the cone area. They use the same opposed driver vibration cancelling as the Sub 1. Finally, Chad is a member here (doesn't post often) and he is an enthusiast. Call the company and you will probably talk to him or his dad. There are other options as well. Do your subs HAVE to be Paradigm?

#3 of 13 Blackdevil77

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Posted January 27 2012 - 07:30 AM

What is your criteria for judging? Bass is about moving air and six 8's have more cone area than a single 15" On the other hand, cone area isn't the be-all end-all of drivers. You need to also look at driver excursion and neither sub mentions that. Now, the Sub 1 has opposed drivers and will therefore cancel vibrations.

I know six 8" drivers have more cone area then a single 15, thus should be able to move more air, creating more bass, but like you said, cone area isn't the be-all end-all of drivers, which is why I am asking that question, hoping maybe somebody would know the driver's peak to peak excursion on both pieces. I read somewhere that the SUB 25's driver has a peak to peak excursion of about 3 inches, but have no idea what the excursion is for the 8" drivers in the SUB1. The vibration canceling doesn't mean much to me. I don't really plan to use the sub as a table anyway.

The biggest determining factor in this is your room and the sub's location in the room

Assuming the 2 Subs are in the same room, in their optimum location. I'm talking more of which sub has the greater capability of this, rather then room acoustics.

This type of thinking bugs the mess out of me. Why can't people want an ACCURATE sub. Accuracy means that the sub will reproduce any input signal as the recording engineer intended it to sound whether it be music or movie special effects.

That is basically what I am looking for. The more ACCURATE of the two. I put this question in here based on the assumption that somebody would ask me this. Every thread I read when somebody is looking for an answer to "which sub," that question always pops up, so I figured I'd just say both evenly before that happened.

Haven't heard both. I've never heard a Paradigm sub. In fact, I've heard few retail subs. None have the specs that impress me. Same with these. The Sub 1 looks impressive with a 12 hz extension but they have an asterisk beside it. First it is in-room extension. Second, the -3 db point gives no upper end reference nor does it give a max output. Same with the 9 hz extension on the Sub25.

For what I'm upgrading from, the spec's for me at least, are quite impressive, as well as the reviews I've read about them.

I think both may satisfy you but they are expensive. http://www.epiksubwo...dualempire.html has an MSRP of 1/2 the price of the Sub 25 while having 4 times the cone area. They use the same opposed driver vibration cancelling as the Sub 1. Finally, Chad is a member here (doesn't post often) and he is an enthusiast. Call the company and you will probably talk to him or his dad. There are other options as well. Do your subs HAVE to be Paradigm?

I'll look into that, thank you. No they don't have to be Paradigm. Reason I'm looking at Paradigm is simply because I like them. I've had good experiences in the past and the reviews I read about them seem to talk VERY highly of them. Not saying I wouldn't give anything else a shot, there's just so much out there. I've always liked the sound from the Paradigm speakers so I figured I'd be safe with them.

#4 of 13 Robert_J

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Posted January 27 2012 - 08:40 AM

but like you said, cone area isn't the be-all end-all of drivers, which is why I am asking that question, hoping maybe somebody would know the driver's peak to peak excursion on both pieces.

Due to the size of the frame and subsequently the size of the spider and surround, a 15" is capable of much more excursion than an 8". This 8" has 17mm of one-way, linear excursion. That is about all you can get from that basket. http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/ Sundown just came out with an 8" sub that Klippel tests 28mm of xmax. As you can see, it has a basket based on the old Eclipse Ti style while staying away from patents. http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/ Very few speaker manufacturers end up making great subs. But the guys that start off making subs usually end up with great speakers. www.svsound.com www.epiksubwoofers.com www.edesignaudio.com www.rythmikaudio.com www.hsuresarch.com For sheer output, this can't be beat as far as retail subs at this price point go - http://www.edesignau...products_id=606

#5 of 13 Blackdevil77

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Posted January 27 2012 - 09:46 AM

but like you said, cone area isn't the be-all end-all of drivers, which is why I am asking that question, hoping maybe somebody would know the driver's peak to peak excursion on both pieces.

Due to the size of the frame and subsequently the size of the spider and surround, a 15" is capable of much more excursion than an 8". This 8" has 17mm of one-way, linear excursion. That is about all you can get from that basket. http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/ Sundown just came out with an 8" sub that Klippel tests 28mm of xmax. As you can see, it has a basket based on the old Eclipse Ti style while staying away from patents. http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/ Very few speaker manufacturers end up making great subs. But the guys that start off making subs usually end up with great speakers. www.svsound.com www.epiksubwoofers.com www.edesignaudio.com www.rythmikaudio.com www.hsuresarch.com For sheer output, this can't be beat as far as retail subs at this price point go - http://www.edesignau...products_id=606

Now that one in the link looks monstrous! Is their a trade off with extreme high excursion? There usually always is a catch with these things sealed boxes offer tighter more accurate sound at the expense of SPL, ported gives more SPL but USUALLY not as good sound quality, larger drives tend to go lower and louder but may possibly get more sloppy depending on design etc. Would all that excursion sacrifice precision? Also with regards to my other question, do you think the S6 would be fine with the use of a sub? Does the S8 have any real sound quality advantage if used with a sub over the S6, or does the benefit of the S8 come into play mostly when used without a sub?

#6 of 13 Robert_J

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Posted January 27 2012 - 01:46 PM

Is their a trade off with extreme high excursion?

There's a trade-off on everything subwoofer related. You end up with a voice coil that is 60 to 80 mm winding length. That's just a huge inductor in itself. High inductance will give you a boomy sound because of an inductance peak in the 50hz to 60hz range. I know because I run http://web.archive.o....com/tc3000.htm these in my home theater. I had a 14db peak at 54hz caused by nothing but inductance. When designing the sub enclosure, it was apparent in the Unibox software so I made sure to have something to tame it. I use a 12 band, digital parametric EQ to flatten the response from 100hz to 15hz + or - 3db. Output with 800w per sub is scary. I've never really stressed my amp. I end up thinking I'm going to break a lamp or have the dishes fall out of the cabinets in the kitchen before I get to the limits on those subs.

There usually always is a catch with these things sealed boxes offer tighter more accurate sound at the expense of SPL, ported gives more SPL but USUALLY not as good sound quality,

A good, ported box can provide both SPL and quality but it ends up being enormous. Refrigerator sized.

larger drives tend to go lower and louder but may possibly get more sloppy depending on design etc.

Not really. Sometimes their weight limits how high they will play. But even my 21" sub is supposed to be clean to over 100hz. Well in the operating range.

Would all that excursion sacrifice precision?

Let's say you are playing a complex passage with both extreme lows and some higher frequencies. Yes, you will get some warbling because the cone is trying to reproduce the 70hz tone while at the same time moving back and forth more than 3". Sometimes you may want dual subs. One for the extreme lows and one for higher bass. Hsu Research has that with their MBM.

Also with regards to my other question, do you think the S6 would be fine with the use of a sub? Does the S8 have any real sound quality advantage if used with a sub over the S6, or does the benefit of the S8 come into play mostly when used without a sub?

I have no idea.

#7 of 13 Blackdevil77

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Posted January 27 2012 - 04:23 PM

That's why I want my main speakers to play all but the lowest frequencies. Depending on the speakers, I'd like the crossover frequency at 60Hz, 80Hz max. I'm enjoying this conversation, I'm learning quite a bit. My current set up are a pair of monitor 7 v.3's, matching center (CC-370 I believe) with matching surround speakers, Paradigm PW2200 subwoofer, and a Marantz SR7500 receiver. It's a nice set-up and has served me very well for over 6 years, but the signature series definitely seems like a significant upgrade for me from what I have now, especially with a Parasound A51 amp.

#8 of 13 Robert_J

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Posted January 27 2012 - 11:25 PM

Comparing the S6 to the S8 - there isn't much different. The S8 plays 2 hz lower and is 1db more sensitive. In a blind listening test that isn't enough difference for the ear to pick up. Either one will work with a low crossover setting.

#9 of 13 Blackdevil77

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Posted January 28 2012 - 02:42 AM

That's very good and comforting to hear. Especially since a pair of the S6 speakers would be a tad under 6 grand, and the S8's would be 9 grand. I guess the biggest difference is price.

#10 of 13 Robert_J

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Posted January 28 2012 - 04:06 AM

There is a LOT of labor that goes into finishing a high end speaker. I've toured the Egglestonworks factory and saw their speakers being built. This one costs about what the S8's cost - http://egglestonwork...ts/fontaine-ii/ . There's probably $500 worth of drivers and crossovers in it. The rest is labor and profit before selling it to the dealer for about $4,250 a pair. I hate dealer markup. If I ever bought retail, I'd get speakers directly from the factory like SVS or eD. But I'm a DIY guy so I find a proven plan and build it myself. My speakers cost about $120 each in parts and compare to speakers costing $1,000 each. When my wife and I were listening to the Eggleston Savoy ($55,000/pair) she whispered to me "Those sound better than your speakers but not that much better".

#11 of 13 Blackdevil77

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Posted January 28 2012 - 05:28 AM

I hear ya. Everybody has to profit with anything retail. I have a co-worker that used to deliver the meet to where wendy's made it's burgers. What he told me was unbelievable. The cost of a 10 dollar meal at wendy's actually cost them about 1/16th of a penny to make!!! You sir, are the man. I had a feeling you were a DIY guy when you were talking about how your not impressed with the spec's of retail stuff. Definitely very respectable and has to be an awesome feeling when you and others are listening to something you made and are blown away by it. I would definitely have to work on my carpentry skills before I actually constructed speaker cabinets that look as good as some of these high-end retail cabinets. The Paradigm Signature cabinets in my opinion are beautiful looking speakers. Building speakers is definitely something I would love to do and would definitely enjoy, but I doubt I'd be able to build anything like you can for quite some time.

#12 of 13 Robert_J

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Posted January 28 2012 - 10:00 AM

Start small. There are plans for small bookshelf speakers that would be great computer speakers. I've seen the cost as low as $60/pair for the parts.

#13 of 13 Blackdevil77

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Posted January 28 2012 - 04:02 PM

Sounds like a good idea to me. I'm gonna look into it for sure. Maybe when I get it underway, I'll post some pictures for critiquing