Boring Question I'm Sure! Back speakers not Producing Surround (1 Viewer)

Hi folks, I'm building a surround system, specs are: Denon Receiver Polk Center Speaker 2 little, old Panasonic front l/r speakers being replaced tomorrow by Polks 2 new rear Insignia's Polk Subwoofer Things are working fine, all speakers have tested out fine, and I can hear music coming from the rear speakers, but that 'moving/transfer of music to rear speakers' ie, surround sensation, is not working. I really don't know what the issue is at this point. I'm thinking cross-over, since everything else seems to be set okay, but the articles on cross-over are above my head. It is all set to 80Hz, Front, Center and Surround . I do not have surround back speakers, just rear speakers. In addition to any advice on this, I have these questions: -should rear speakers be set to extremely low volume, as a friend told me? -should SW, center and fr/fl be set equally, or do you all set volumes higher than the others? (which?) -my manual says set fl/fr, center and rear to Small.....what does that mean, vs Large? -What is impact if you have fl/fr and rl/rr speakers mis-wired? Say I have right where it is actually connected at the receiver to the left connectors? I have to track the mess of cables to verify they're okay, but want to know the ramifications if they are mixed up. Thanks hugely for any input!

Additional, REALLY stupid question.... If I'm hooking up left/right speakers, are left and right plugged in according to whether I'm looking at the system, or looking out toward the room where the speakers are placed(I 'think' it is this??) Yeah, I'm very novice at this!

Hi Amy, welcome to the forum!


Can you tell us which model Denon receiver you have? It may have a built-in setup/calibration feature (usually also includes a microphone you plug in for setup) that can do a lot of this for you. Also, what devices are you trying to hear surround sound from and how are they connected (i.e. if it's a DVD player, do you use Red/White rca cables for audio, or a single optical or RCA cable. For Blu-Ray is it connected via HDMI, or something else?).


Setup and calibration can be critical, but it's really hard (next to impossible, really) to do that using a movie as the "source". If your Denon doesn't have a setup utility, then it should in the least be able to send a test tone to each speaker (sounds like static). This option will be under the audio setup menu of the receiver.


Since all movies are mixed differently, and some have more surround sound than others, you need to make sure that all the speakers are at the same relative volume for someone sitting in the "sweet spot" or the center of the viewing location. If your speakers are symmetrically positioned, they very well may have the same volume setting, but if one speaker is farther away, then its level should be raised so the net effect to the listener is the same as other speakers.


Oh, and "Left" "Right" are determined as you look at your TV from the viewing location (see this handy guide for speaker placement - choose 5.1).


If you have a subwoofer in the mix (which you do), then your speakers should be set to "small". This means that the low frequencies are routed directly to the subwoofer. "Large" would send all the audio frequencies to your main speakers, and they can't go as low as the subwoofer.


Let us know the model of your Denon and we can offer more specific advice.

Thanks Jason, I indicated 'boring' because I'm sure this question is asked over and over. My receiver is an AVR-1312 I am setting up using music, not a movie. I have it set to PLIIX M. Blue-Ray, TV, TIVO and Cable Box all connected via HDMI Speakers connected through the 'snap down' connectors, except the front and the rear ones, which are connected using the screw ones you turn I am using RCA end-to-end jack for my subwoofer ,not the 'snap downs' , and not the Y-cable, it is one connection at each end. The woofer is working great- (what do you call those snap-down connectors?) The receiver has the tone-test option that you select through the tv screen when viewing menus and such. Frankly, I don't know how to use it, other than to prove the speakers are all working, even though I can hear they are. I really don't want to have to buy an external device to calibrate (but if I have to I will). No microphone came with it. If you can give direction on use of the built in utility, I'd really appreciate it. Today I set up my new Polk T15 speakers in the rear, and my smaller Insignia's in the front (center and woofer also Polk). My woofer, speakers, and center speaker are all within 3 feet of each other, and sound great. Rear speakers about 7 ft apart. Everything is symmetrical and corresponding speakers placed at same height. Speaker volumes (scale is 1-8): FR/FL - 6 Center - 7.5 Woofer - 6.5 RR/RL - I test it between 2 and about 3.5, my understanding is they should be barely audible. They're so low though, that if a signal was sent to them, I'm not sure how you would even hear it. Everything is set to small. I'm not sure what other specs to give you, but I'm dying to get the rolling beauty of my sound up and running!! Thanks greatly... Amy

Amy,


The good news is that it sounds like you have everything connected properly. The "snap down" connectors for speakers are called spring clips. The screw-type are binding posts. Both work just fine, but the spring clips can have trouble if your speaker wire is really thick.


The subwoofer is connected using a coaxial cable - that's good.


Speakers set to "small" is correct - you have a subwoofer and by setting things to "small" you ensure that the lower frequencies are sent to the subwoofer.


So congrats on getting all of that done properly!


It's the setup and speaker level settings that you need to focus on. I'm surprised that your Denon doesn't have an auto setup utility (I checked the manual online and verified it doesn't). That makes things a bit trickier.


To properly set the levels of all the speakers ideally requires using the test tones from the receiver along with an SPL meter (like this one). The SPL meter can accurately measure the volume from each speaker as heard at the listening position. With the SPL meter, you set your receiver to play test tones (not movies or music) through each speaker in turn. You use the readout on the SPL meter and the level adjustments in the receiver (manual page 26) to make all the channels register the same volume on the SPL meter. You can try doing this by ear (make sure there are no distractions and closing your eyes really helps) but be warned - your ears are NOT accurate. You will get much better results with a meter, but I can understand not wanting to spend $40 for something you're likely to use only a couple of times. This is the benefit of receivers with microphones - they can do all this for you. But no worries - even by ear I think you'll get yourself "in the ballpark" which is better than nothing.


Once the levels are equalized, then you know that whatever you hear is as the sound engineer designed it.


Not all "surround sound" is created equal. Some movies have very active surrounds, some have almost nothing. Variances are to be expected.


As for music, technically, that's all recorded in stereo so if you listen to it in "stereo" or "direct" mode, you should not hear anything from the center or surrounds.


Listening modes (like Dolby ProLogic IIx) are really intended to simulate surround sound for sources that aren't natively recorded in surround sound. Generally, most of us in this forum prefer to disable any sort of listening modes and other audio "processing" as it can negate the original audio and, frankly, not sound so good. I would DEFINITELY not use any sort of listening mode or extra processing for Blu-Ray movies - the lossless audio that is on them is perfect as-is.


You'll have to explore the various audio options available in the menus to see what works best. These options are under the "Audio Adjust" menu (page 36 in the manual). Looking briefly at many of the settings, I think they're best either "Off" or set to zero (only subwoofer should be left "On").


The only "Listening mode" that I find useful from time to time is "Multi Channel Stereo". If I'm entertaining, I like to use this for music. It plays stereo sources equally through all speakers. Really helps fill the room with music.


Really, that should be about it. Getting those levels equalized is the priority. Get that done, then fiddle with some settings to see (and hear) what works best for you.


Good luck.

You will get much better results with a meter, but I can understand not wanting to spend $40 for something you're likely to use only a couple of times.

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Amy, If you post your location, there is probably someone near you with a meter that will be happy to do a full calibration. I've done it for other local forum members. And no we aren't some kind of creepy Home Theater Forum dating service. If I were going to a female's house, I would bring my wife who by the way has the same name as you. -Robert

Robert, you killed my last hopes, I was looking to find a creepier husband than the last on this exact forum!! Jason, are you saying that when I set both the front speakers to a level 7, for example, they may not actually both be calibrated correctly, so one might be at 5.5 and the other like at 7.5? When I run the test tone, is there a particular speaker I should use as my baseline? Do I want to have ALL speakers set to the same level/volume?? Including the rear speakers? I am in self-imposed quarantine right now due to the 'real' flu and pneumonia, so have about a 1 hour window every 4-5 hours when the pain killers kick in, and I can get up and work on this a bit..I'm obsessed with getting it set up as best I can. I do have a friend who is going to come and calibrate it as much as possible, but it might be another week until I'm well enough for people to come over and not catch this really, REALLY wicked flu. He has been talking me through some things to try too, very knowledgeable, but I can grasp things better in writing and get more detail here. Also, the crossover freq., front, center and surround are all set to 80Hz. Should I leave these alone? I have been back and forth through the manual, but it uses terms it assumes you already know, so I then google them, and am learning a lot at least. Thanks for the help, you've been great. I'll try the test tone once I hear back, and then probably have someone go pick me up a meter. $40 isn't bad, thought it would be more.

The purpose of the calibration is to make all the speakers the same relative volume - so it doesn't matter which you use as a baseline. There IS the possibility that the two front speakers may need to be set to slightly different volumes - room geometry and other acoustical issues could be the cause of the discrepancy, but you mentioned your mains were pretty close to each other, so it's probably unlikely they'll need to be at different levels, but you never know.


80Hz crossover is fine.


According to the manual I found online, when you adjust the speaker levels (Speaker Setup --> Channel Level) you should be able to make adjustments from -12dB to +12dB (I'm assuming the +12dB because the manual only mentions the bottom limit of -12).


Here's how I would approach the calibration.


- Reset all the speaker levels to 0.0 on the Channel Level menu.

- Turn the volume (gain) knob on the subwoofer to halfway.

- Play some Blu-Ray movies (we'll calibrate for movies, since that's the primary source of surround sound audio) and play some to establish the volume level on the receiver that sounds "about right" to your listening habits. Note - since we've reset the speaker levels to zero, this may be a higher volume than you're used to. What we're really doing is finding the volume level to play the test tones so we calibrate to your preferred volume.


- Leave the volume set to whatever you had when testing with movies.


- Get the SPL meter out, sit in the primary listening position, and hold the SPL as still as possible (a tripod is ideal, but we're splitting hairs at this point). I usually aim it to the top of the front wall (some folks swear it should be vertical, others that it should be flat. I split the difference ).

- Set the meter to "C-Weighting" and the response to "Slow"

- You want to cycle through the speakers, one at a time, and adjust their levels so that the needle remains as close to the same spot for all channels. It doesn't matter so much WHAT volume they're set to, as long as they are consistent. I usually tweak the first speaker so the needle hits a mark on the meter - makes the rest that much easier.


In my experience, the subwoofer is always a bit of a challenge. Should you adjust the level in the menu, or the volume knob on the subwoofer? Either one will do. In fact, the subwoofer is the one speaker you can adjust to your preference without worrying about messing up anything else. Sometimes you might want more, other times less. In this instance, the volume knob on the sub is more accessible, so feel free to use it.


All of this should provide you with a solid baseline for all movies and surround material. Even though the surround speakers are calibrated to the same level as the mains, does not mean they're going to be overwhelming when watching movies. The movies themselves are mixed with just the right amount of surround activity and volume.


Finally, I'm sorry to hear you're feeling under the weather. Stinks that it seems to happen this time of year. Hope you feel better soon.

Hi


I am from Bangalore, India. I just got a Denon AVR 1312 as a gift from US. I have connected my old DVD Phillips speakers 8 Ohms and the Sub-woofer is 4 ohms with no power to it.


I am unable to hear any test tone sound on the sub-woofer.


All speaker are set to small and the sub-woofer is ON


Tried different Crossover freqs. Still no sound. Just a very very very faint hum when I put my ear to the sub-woofer


Please help. Thanks

sheeraz said:

Hi

I am from Bangalore, India. I just got a Denon AVR 1312 as a gift from US. I have connected my old DVD Phillips speakers 8 Ohms and the Sub-woofer is 4 ohms with no power to it.

I am unable to hear any test tone sound on the sub-woofer.

All speaker are set to small and the sub-woofer is ON

Tried different Crossover freqs. Still no sound. Just a very very very faint hum when I put my ear to the sub-woofer

Please help. Thanks

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You need an amp for the subwoofer.

Dear Sam


Thanks for the reply. Did some searching on Google and found the output from Pre Out Subwoofer is just data and requires an amplifier as you said.


I have a Kinsonic 5.1 multimedia speaker. Can I use the subwoofer of that to connect. Its got a built-in amplifier.


Attached is a pic of it. If I can use it then let me know where to connect to, 1. Digital input, Coaxial or 2. Analog Input, Left & Right. I will get the right cables for it.


Thanks again for your help Sam.

Sorry Sam I am unable to upload the picture. Says "Upload Skipped (Error403) even though my file size is 70 KB.

You can check the picture here


http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5655/22662645867_6551a05cef_b.jpg

Not really. That "subwoofer" isn't intended to be used without the other 5 speakers.