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Save Star Wars!


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#21 of 207 RobertR

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Posted October 01 2011 - 11:00 AM

That answers my question. Lucas does NOT allow the originals to be shown.

#22 of 207 dargo

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Posted October 01 2011 - 04:32 PM

There are many wrongs in the world, this is way down my list. good luck.

#23 of 207 Guest__*

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Posted October 01 2011 - 04:37 PM

I would like the originals in HD, however, Star Wars is still enjoyable for this viewer. It entertains and that is what it is supposed to do. Now, there are other films and tv shows that need saving and unfortunately they don't have the vocal support that SW does. I guess SW fans just yell the loudest! Good Luck!



#24 of 207 SilverWook

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Posted October 01 2011 - 08:25 PM

 

Maybe, but I was in Jackson MS in 79 and that was where I saw the the New Hope crawl at Meadowbrook Cinema 6.  In 1981 I was in New Orleans for that Re-release.   By the way was there not a Re-release in the 80's some time when the The New Hope crawl was not there and the original was back, or am I thinking about a Laser disc release?

 

I suppose anything is possible, but there was a bit of mass confusion when many people people saw "Episode V" on Empire Strikes Back when it opened in 1980. Some reviews took the time to explain it. The original 1977 crawl had never been on any official video release until the 2006 "bonus disc".

#25 of 207 ahollis

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Posted October 02 2011 - 03:48 AM




Originally Posted by SilverWook 


I suppose anything is possible, but there was a bit of mass confusion when many people people saw "Episode V" on Empire Strikes Back when it opened in 1980. Some reviews took the time to explain it.

The original 1977 crawl had never been on any official video release until the 2006 "bonus disc".


The 2006 bonus disc was it.  Thanks.


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#26 of 207 Ethan Riley

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Posted October 02 2011 - 05:26 AM

I moved to the US to join my wife, and have found I love the country enough to want to become a fully active participant in society. As it stands, I already pay quite a bit in taxes, so why not have a say on how they're used? And honestly? I would love to become a citizen of a country that protects its cultural heritage from unchecked revisionism. Re-read John's post, read the ongoing discussion on the main thread, and realize that no one's advocating the government "forcing artists to comply with the wishes of their fans". The thrust of the argument is that no one should have the power to withhold a work from the public, once it's been released. That is not what copyright was created for. And it most certainly was no created to retro-actively replace an existing work with a modified/censored/otherwise altered version. Art is a work created in order to elicit some sort of emotional response. Without a receptive audience, there is no art. The work only acquires meaning once it's experienced. As such, although it's solely created by the artist, it's given life by those who receive it. In short, it becomes part of our collective consciousness. Was Allen Klein right in sitting on the rights to Jodorowski's "El Topo" for 30 years, until his company approached Jodorowski about making amends? Legally, he had every right to do so. He could have burned the o-negs, and no one would have had the right to stop him. But was he right?

Doesn't matter who's right or wrong because no crime has been committed. The fact is, do we actually have the nerve to ask Congress to step in and force George Lucas to do what we want? I mean, what the hell. With all the problems in this country today, we really want to use politics to stop Greedo from shooting first? Seriously. A better option would be to write polite letters to Lucasfilm, asking them to kindly release the original versions on bluray. That's all we need to be doing. I swear--if I was George Lucas and the Library of Congress started yelling at me, I'd be highly offended and insulted. And John's post, which you cite, actually exposes the ironies in this issue from both sides (Lucas and the government). If the government actually had the nerve to step in and demand Lucas provide them with the original release, then they are going way, way over their boundaries in a democracy. It's literally none of their business. And I don't want them doing it. I don't like what Lucas is doing, and I don't have to. And he doesn't have to like or agree with what the fans are saying. That's the way it is in a democracy. And we're talking about art here--he is the artist and is fully within his rights to deliver his art any way he sees fit. We don't have to like it, but that is his right. Because if you're asking for government involvement, then you're implying that George Lucas is a criminal and he's broken some kind of law. He hasn't. And the fans feel helpless, so they call their congressmen? Sheesh!! There's 10% unemployed and kids starving in the streets and we want our Congressmen to save Star Wars? That's bull! Again--all we need to do is be patient and polite towards Lucasfilm and see what they can do. Star Wars fandom gets easily worked up and bent out of shape. That's traditional, and it's due to the passion we all feel for these films. But we need to channel that passion into something positive, not behave like complete asses, get the government involved and piss off George Lucas even further. Nobody's gonna be happy if that actually happens.
 

 


#27 of 207 Mark Collins

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Posted October 02 2011 - 07:00 AM

HI Fans, I watched my VHS tapes from 1984 and the last movie release to home video 1986 all by CBS/FOX. I surprised to see thay looked pretty good still. I have the Leonard Maltin VHS tapes from 1995 pan and scan. The intro states "this is the last time you will see Star Wars in it's original form. I have a question about the 1995 release are they an upgrade but still the original films? I have the 1997 widescreen version. I wondered if these had been tampered with? I have the bonus disc from the DVD release. I also bought the first film in the new trilogy in VHS. I then bought it of course in DVD. I have to thank once again the great fan who provided me with lot's of info. I just think these two questions I had never asked before. I also wanted to state and perhaps I should do this on the other threads that for some reason Empire was my favorite of all 6. I cannot explain it I just have always loved Empire.

#28 of 207 Guest__*

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Posted October 02 2011 - 07:19 AM


I believe they contain audio that was redone in 1993 with little additions.

Originally Posted by Mark Collins 

HI Fans,
I watched my VHS tapes from 1984 and the last movie release to home video 1986 all by CBS/FOX. I surprised to see thay looked pretty good still. I have the Leonard Maltin VHS tapes from 1995 pan and scan. The intro states "this is the last time you will see Star Wars in it's original form. I have a question about the 1995 release are they an upgrade but still the original films? I have the 1997 widescreen version. I wondered if these had been tampered with?
I have the bonus disc from the DVD release. I also bought the first film in the new trilogy in VHS. I then bought it of course in DVD.
I have to thank once again the great fan who provided me with lot's of info. I just think these two questions I had never asked before.
I also wanted to state and perhaps I should do this on the other threads that for some reason Empire was my favorite of all 6. I cannot explain it I just have always loved Empire.






#29 of 207 Mark-P

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Posted October 02 2011 - 08:23 AM

HI Fans, ...I have the Leonard Maltin VHS tapes from 1995 pan and scan. The intro states "this is the last time you will see Star Wars in it's original form...

:laugh:

#30 of 207 Worth

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Posted October 02 2011 - 08:50 AM

And we're talking about art here--he is the artist and is fully within his rights to deliver his art any way he sees fit.

While I understand your point, it's Lucas' role as the financial owner of the films that allows him to make these changes, not his role as creator.
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#31 of 207 Todd H

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Posted October 02 2011 - 03:12 PM

Yeah, quit buying his stuff.  If everyone had passed on this new BD release Lucas would have gotten the message.  I did my part. 

 

Same here.

#32 of 207 ahollis

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Posted October 02 2011 - 03:58 PM



Originally Posted by Worth 


While I understand your point, it's Lucas' role as the financial owner of the films that allows him to make these changes, not his role as creator.



And what makes you think it is all financial and not a creator thinking that his changes are better.  If was all financial, he would have also released the orginals along with the newer editions.  IMHO



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#33 of 207 ahollis

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Posted October 02 2011 - 03:59 PM



Originally Posted by Todd H 


Same here.


Yep, ya'll did your part, but the 100 of thousands of others didn't.  No winner on either side.


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#34 of 207 Ricardo C

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Posted October 02 2011 - 04:24 PM

Doesn't matter who's right or wrong because no crime has been committed. The fact is, do we actually have the nerve to ask Congress to step in and force George Lucas to do what we want? I mean, what the hell. With all the problems in this country today, we really want to use politics to stop Greedo from shooting first? Seriously. A better option would be to write polite letters to Lucasfilm, asking them to kindly release the original versions on bluray. That's all we need to be doing. I swear--if I was George Lucas and the Library of Congress started yelling at me, I'd be highly offended and insulted. And John's post, which you cite, actually exposes the ironies in this issue from both sides (Lucas and the government). If the government actually had the nerve to step in and demand Lucas provide them with the original release, then they are going way, way over their boundaries in a democracy. It's literally none of their business. And I don't want them doing it. I don't like what Lucas is doing, and I don't have to. And he doesn't have to like or agree with what the fans are saying. That's the way it is in a democracy. And we're talking about art here--he is the artist and is fully within his rights to deliver his art any way he sees fit. We don't have to like it, but that is his right. Because if you're asking for government involvement, then you're implying that George Lucas is a criminal and he's broken some kind of law. He hasn't. And the fans feel helpless, so they call their congressmen? Sheesh!! There's 10% unemployed and kids starving in the streets and we want our Congressmen to save Star Wars? That's bull! Again--all we need to do is be patient and polite towards Lucasfilm and see what they can do. Star Wars fandom gets easily worked up and bent out of shape. That's traditional, and it's due to the passion we all feel for these films. But we need to channel that passion into something positive, not behave like complete asses, get the government involved and piss off George Lucas even further. Nobody's gonna be happy if that actually happens.

I regret that you insist on reducing the issue to "angry nerds want the government to tell George Lucas what to do". It's much larger than that. And while I wholeheartedly agree that there are much more important issues to deal with, it's no less true that using that as an argument against taking action on any other issue is a fallacious argument. Perhaps elected officials shouldn't be allowed to sit down and watch a movie or read a book till they've solved unemployment, balanced the budgets, and provided free healthcare to all? And once again, no one advocates the government taking control of Lucas' property or anything remotely like it. In fact, what I believe John is proposing, and what I advocate, is writing to your elected representatives, and saying something along the same lines as this, which was written by our old friend George (just some choice quotes, the full speech is even better): "I've come as a citizen of what I believe to be a great society that is in need of a moral anchor to help define and protect its intellectual and cultural heritage. It is not being protected. The destruction of our film heritage, which is the focus of concern today, is only the tip of the iceberg. American law does not protect our painters, sculptors, recording artists, authors, or filmmakers from having their lifework distorted, and their reputation ruined. If something is not done now to clearly state the moral rights of artists, current and future technologies will alter, mutilate, and destroy for future generations the subtle human truths and highest human feeling that talented individuals within our society have created. A copyright is held in trust by its owner until it ultimately reverts to public domain. American works of art belong to the American public; they are part of our cultural history. People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians, and if the laws of the United States continue to condone this behavior, history will surely classify us as a barbaric society. The preservation of our cultural heritage may not seem to be as politically sensitive an issue as "when life begins" or "when it should be appropriately terminated," but it is important because it goes to the heart of what sets mankind apart. Creative expression is at the core of our humanness. Art is a distinctly human endeavor. We must have respect for it if we are to have any respect for the human race. It will soon be possible to create a new "original" negative with whatever changes or alterations the copyright holder of the moment desires. The copyright holders, so far, have not been completely diligent in preserving the original negatives of films they control. In order to reconstruct old negatives, many archivists have had to go to Eastern bloc countries where American films have been better preserved. In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be "replaced" by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten. There are those who say American law is sufficient. That's an outrage! It's not sufficient! If it were sufficient, why would I be here? Why would John Houston have been so studiously ignored when he protested the colorization of "The Maltese Falcon?" Why are films cut up and butchered? I hope you have the courage to lead America in acknowledging the importance of American art to the human race, and accord the proper protection for the creators of that art--as it is accorded them in much of the rest of the world communities."
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#35 of 207 Ethan Riley

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Posted October 02 2011 - 05:32 PM

Yeah, Ricardo, I'm not buying a word of that letter. Sounds like it was written by some hysterical crank. It starts out with some interesting information and then devolves into a ridiculous, impassioned rant. And whatever you may be thinking, it's not going to do any good, because it doesn't call for any particular action. Beginning with your comment in the first paragraph, I'm sorry but you completely misunderstood my point. What I meant was that elected officials have no business meddling in art and commerce. They do--often--especially with the latter. And it's never a good idea. And I realize that you believe you're fighting a larger fight, but despite what you wish to believe, it does originate from a fanboy battalion trying to get the government to force George Lucas to do what they want. The larger issue you seem to advocate could balloon into a situation wherein the government could step in and interfere with artists' rights. And I say bullshit. That is not an American value. Americans employ unprecedented liberties including freedom of speech. And freedom of artistic expression is a major part of that. Whether you agree with Lucas' artistic decisions or not doesn't matter. If you truly wish to embrace American values, you should be defending his right to expression, not whining to the government that someone is saying something you don't like. Just like I have to defend your friend John for writing stupid letters to the government. I realize Lucas comes across as a hypocrite due to his ancient testimony but hypocrisy is also a means of expression and therefore protected by the First Amendment. He can say whatever he likes. There is no law against it, and since he's a private citizen, there shouldn't be. So who the hell does this dork think he is, trying to get some stupid law passed, just so the end goal will be Congress forcing George Lucas to put out the original Star Wars on dvd. That's all this is really about. Seriously. But I have no idea what the hell would possess an American citizen to do such a thing. If he's got so much energy to burn, he should do what I said earlier--write to Lucasfilm. Start a letter writing campaign and politely ask Lucas to release the originals on bluray. That's it. It's the absolute best way of doing things. I would personally never even conceive of a plan that would go so far over Lucas' head as to get the dang government involved in all this. It's totally ridiculous, and the rest of you need to see this for what it is. I'm not having any of this.
 

 


#36 of 207 Ricardo C

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Posted October 02 2011 - 07:08 PM

Fair enough, Ethan. We'll agree to disagree. Thanks for making your argument eloquently and politely.
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#37 of 207 johnSM

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Posted October 02 2011 - 09:29 PM

Re-read John's post, read the ongoing discussion on the main thread, and realize that no one's advocating the government "forcing artists to comply with the wishes of their fans". The thrust of the argument is that no one should have the power to withhold a work from the public, once it's been released. That is not what copyright was created for. And it most certainly was no created to retro-actively replace an existing work with a modified/censored/otherwise altered version. Art is a work created in order to elicit some sort of emotional response. Without a receptive audience, there is no art. The work only acquires meaning once it's experienced. As such, although it's solely created by the artist, it's given life by those who receive it. In short, it becomes part of our collective consciousness. Was Allen Klein right in sitting on the rights to Jodorowski's "El Topo" for 30 years, until his company approached Jodorowski about making amends? Legally, he had every right to do so. He could have burned the o-negs, and no one would have had the right to stop him. But was he right?

Very well put, and that's exactly what I was alluding to by my original post. And this isn't a case of 'fanboys creating a stink to get the version they want'. This is a case of film fans making sure that important works of art are preserved ALONGSIDE the changed/altered versions, particularly with films as important as Star Wars. I think a law needs to be passed which protects without exception the original screened (to the public) versions of ANY film, as a matter of course. This just happens to be about a film called Star Wars, which unfortunately does carry rather a lot of baggage with it. Ethan Riley: "Doesn't matter who's right or wrong because no crime has been committed" - in YOUR opinion..... There are plenty of crimes which are committed legally, especially against art. "A better option would be to write polite letters to Lucasfilm, asking them to kindly release the original versions on bluray. " - Do you not think that this has already been happening for at least a decade now... "So who the hell does this dork think he is, trying to get some stupid law passed?" - Nice..... "I'm not having any of this" - Fine! Stand back and let important works of art get steadily mutilated over the years. It's your cultural history... :rolleyes: I've had my say folks, and will bow out now. I just hope that when Lucas finally makes that one future change that pisses even the most casual/laid back film fan off, one will perhaps remember this discussion... I'll leave with a quote from Mr Lucas himself... "The copyright holders, so far, have not been completely diligent in preserving the original negatives of films they control....The public's interest is ultimately dominant over all other interests. And the proof of that is that even a copyright law only permits the creators and their estate a limited amount of time to enjoy the economic fruits of that work....Attention should be paid to the interest of those who are yet unborn, who should be able to see this generation as it saw itself, and the past generation as it saw itself."

#38 of 207 SilverWook

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Posted October 03 2011 - 12:43 AM

With all due respect Ethan, I think you are misrepresenting those " fanboy battalions" as you call them. I wouldn't want the government, or anyone else to force Lucas to do anything. I grew up idolizing the guy! George is free to twiddle with his movies as much as he wants, and I'm free to look up to and respect some other director.

#39 of 207 Worth

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Posted October 03 2011 - 01:23 AM

And what makes you think it is all financial and not a creator thinking that his changes are better.  If was all financial, he would have also released the orginals along with the newer editions.  IMHO

 

I was referring to the legal right to make changes to the films, not any ethical one. I suspect that his motivations are artistic, regardless of how wrongheaded nearly everyone else thinks them to be - but the ability to carry them out is solely the result of his owning the films outright.
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#40 of 207 Hal F

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Posted October 03 2011 - 01:49 AM

" If the government actually had the nerve to step in and demand Lucas provide them with the original release, then they are going way, way over their boundaries in a democracy." Of course it wouldn't be going over the boundaries of a democracy. You appear to be under the delusion that property rights are unlimited. If given cause the government would certainly have the right to remove prints from Lucas' possession in order to preserve the original versions. We already have a number of laws dealing with the preservation of historical building and landmarks. I don't think it that unreasonable that in order to preserve our cultural heritage some new laws be writtten to extend that sort of protection toward films.