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Star Wars: Attack of the Clones plot question


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#1 of 14 OFFLINE   cafink

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Posted September 26 2011 - 03:41 AM

I've been watching the STAR WARS films recently. I haven't seen the prequels since they were in theaters, so I don't remember them well at all, and watching Episode II last night, I was actually pretty confused about a major plot point. When Obi-Wan arrives at the cloning facility on Kamino, he's told that he's expected, and that the clone army was originally commissioned years ago by a Jedi. But the Jedi that was supposed to have originally requested the clones was actually dead at the time. Jango Fett, the template for the clones, says he was hired by Tyranus. But Tyranus, who we discover to be Count Dooku, leads the separatists, who are fighting AGAINST the republic. So who really asked for the clones, and why? If this is something that is answered in Episode III, just say so without going into details and I'll find it out when I watch that one in a couple of days. But even if it IS explained in the sequel, it seems like a pretty big hole in the plot of Episode II and left me perplexed at the end of the movie. Or did I just miss something?
 

 


#2 of 14 ONLINE   TravisR

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Posted September 26 2011 - 04:12 AM

I've been watching the STAR WARS films recently. I haven't seen the prequels since they were in theaters, so I don't remember them well at all, and watching Episode II last night, I was actually pretty confused about a major plot point. When Obi-Wan arrives at the cloning facility on Kamino, he's told that he's expected, and that the clone army was originally commissioned years ago by a Jedi. But the Jedi that was supposed to have originally requested the clones was actually dead at the time. Jango Fett, the template for the clones, says he was hired by Tyranus. But Tyranus, who we know to be Count Dooku, leads the separatists, who are fighting AGAINST the republic. So who really asked for the clones, and why? If this is something that is answered in Episode III, just say so without going into details and I'll find it out when I watch that one in a couple of days. But even if it IS explained in the sequel, it seems like a pretty big hole in the plot of Episode II and left me perplexed at the end of the movie. Or did I just miss something?

Unknown and I don't think the expanded universe has even answered it. On the Attack Of The Clones commentary (I assume recorded in 2002), Lucas says that it's something that will be answered in the next movie but it isn't. Based on what's in the movie and educated guesses, the best that I can figure is that Sifo-Dyas (a Jedi master on the council) was used by Palpatine in a similar way to what he would eventually do with Dooku. Dyas orders the clone army from the Kaminoans on the idea that the Republic would need to protect itself at some point in the future. After ordering the army, Palpatine presumably had him killed so no one outside of Kamino would know anything about it. Then 10 years later when the army is grown, Palpatine is using Dooku to manufacture the Separtist crisis and the Republic needs the clone army to comabt the droid army. Now, Palpatine is helping lead the fight against the Separtists and would likely be pretty popular amongst the people so that will be one way that he stays in power longer than he is constitutionally allowed to. I have no clue why it couldn't have been fairly easily explained in Attack Of The Clones (even if it's some information that allows the audience to put the pieces together like Fett saying he was hired by Tyranus). Maybe Lucas had some kind of surprise for Revenge Of The Sith and then changed his mind or realized that the specifics of who/why ordered the clone army was more or less irrelevant to that movie and dropped it all together.

#3 of 14 OFFLINE   Chris Will

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Posted September 26 2011 - 04:16 AM

Emperor Palpatine ordered the army. Count Dooku works for Palpatine and is manipulating the separatists to get them into a war so that Palpatine can take control fo the Senate and the clone army to overthrow the Republic. Thus creates the Galactic Empire. This is at least the way I see it when I watch the movies, I'm sure some other SW fanboy could give you more details or correct any errors I have made. Didn't see TravisR's post 'til after I made mine. See, I knew someone would be able to explain it better.

#4 of 14 OFFLINE   Brian Sheffield

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Posted September 26 2011 - 07:52 AM

Palpatine is behind the entire war from the beginning in the Phantom Menace. He manufactured the conflict to gain power over the Republic and destroy the jedi. Only his apprentice Darth Tyranus (Count Dooku) knows about the clone army. The separatist leaders are not privy to the full details of his plan because he intends to betray them. Count Dooku hired Jango Fett to serve as template, and it was he who contacted the Kaminoens on his master's behalf. Dooku told the Kaminoens he was Sifo-Diyas (a master who was recently killed) because the clone army is intended to be used by the republic from the beginning. If the jedi were aware Dooku ordered the army, they would not have used it and Palpatine's machinations would have ground to a halt. Watching Episode 3 will make his plan more clear. The sith in general and Palpatine in particular betray their allies when they are no longer needed.

#5 of 14 ONLINE   TravisR

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Posted September 26 2011 - 08:30 AM

Count Dooku hired Jango Fett to serve as template, and it was he who contacted the Kaminoens on his master's behalf. Dooku told the Kaminoens he was Sifo-Diyas (a master who was recently killed) because the clone army is intended to be used by the republic from the beginning. If the jedi were aware Dooku ordered the army, they would not have used it and Palpatine's machinations would have ground to a halt.

Is that from the Expanded Universe? It makes sense that Dooku could be behind the army since he recruited Jango Fett but it seems like you're making a big assumption and ignoring that the movie directly says that Sifo-Dyas is the person who ordered the army.

#6 of 14 OFFLINE   Greg_S_H

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Posted September 26 2011 - 08:58 AM

I don't think it's explained by the EU. It just makes sense. I assume Dooku had already rebelled by then, so he and Palpatine either murdered a good Jedi or took advantage of his death to have a Jedi in good standing approach the Kaminoans. I think you're right that George decided it was unnecessary to the third movie, so we probably won't ever know for certain. The bottom line to take from it all is that Palpy was playing both sides against the middle, and you're supposed to cringe every time the Jedi are discussing war strategy in front of him. That part did work (most notably in the cartoon).

#7 of 14 OFFLINE   cafink

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Posted September 26 2011 - 08:59 AM

I could be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure that when Obi-Wan was discussing the matter with Mace Windu and Yoda, they mentioned that Sifo-Dyas was already dead at the time the army was originally ordered.
 

 


#8 of 14 OFFLINE   Brian Sheffield

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Posted September 26 2011 - 09:00 AM

Is that from the Expanded Universe? It makes sense that Dooku could be behind the army since he recruited Jango Fett but it seems like you're making a big assumption and ignoring that the movie directly says that Sifo-Dyas is the person who ordered the army.

No. It's my logical assumption. I don't like or follow any Star Wars expanded universe storylines. I'm not ignoring anything. In the movie Obi-wan says Sifo-dias was killed 10 years ago. And Jango Fett himself says he was recruited by a man by the name of Tryrannus. It just makes sense that the same man who ordered the clones hired the template as well. We discover at the end of the film that Count Dooku is Lord Tyrannus when he returns to Corscant and meets with his master, who is pleased because all is going according to plan. The Sith work in pairs: master and apprentice. There is no reason to think Dooku did not simply lie about his identity to the cloners. It makes total sense to me. One thing I do like about the prequels is that certain characters lie and not every detail is exhaustively explained; however, if you pay careful attention, Palpatine's entire plan can be sussed out.

I could be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure that when Obi-Wan was discussing the matter with Mace Windu and Yoda, they mentioned that Sifo-Dyas was already dead at the time the army was originally ordered.

You remember correctly. Sifo-Dias did not order the army.

#9 of 14 ONLINE   TravisR

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Posted September 26 2011 - 10:51 AM

I looked up Sifo-Dyas on Wookieepedia and it says

Sifo-Dyas was once a good friend of fellow Jedi Master Dooku, and had the gift of precognition. Sometime before 32 BBY [The Phantom Menace], he foresaw that the Galactic Republic would face a devastating war. To defend the Republic, he secretly commissioned a clone army from the cloners of the planet Kamino. Prior to this, Dooku had left the Jedi Order, and had fallen in league with Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith. He was told by the Sith Master about Sifo-Dyas' actions, and Sidious also revealed that they could use the clone army for their own ends. As a final test of his allegiance to the dark side of the Force, Dooku murdered Sifo-Dyas and took control of the project for himself. It was Sidious' true intention to use Sifo-Dyas only as a dead-end cover for his plot to use the clone army.

http://starwars.wiki.../wiki/Sifo-Dyas I think it's fair for people to not acknowledge the EU and soley look at the movies to draw their own conclusions from but when there's nothing in the movie to contradict what the EU says, I have no problem accepting it (especially since I'm not trying to use the EU explanation as a way to say "See, this part of the movie totally makes sense". :) ).

#10 of 14 OFFLINE   cafink

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Posted September 26 2011 - 12:33 PM

The more I thought about it, the more certain I became that, in the meeting between Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and Yoda in Episode II, one of them said that Sifo-Dyas had died before the order for the clones was ever placed. So I pulled the DVD out again to check. This is exactly what Obi-Wan says: "They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army at the request of the senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that." Neither Windu nor Yoda confirms or denies that specific point. But that's a pretty strong suggestion that Sifo-Dyas was dead at the time. I took it at face value, and based just on what's in the movie, assumed that whomever ordered the clones, it wasn't actually Sifo-Dyas.
 

 


#11 of 14 ONLINE   TravisR

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Posted September 26 2011 - 12:42 PM

Neither Windu nor Yoda confirms or denies that specific point. But that's a pretty strong suggestion that Sifo-Dyas was dead at the time. I took it at face value, and based just on what's in the movie, assumed that whomever ordered the clones, it wasn't actually Sifo-Dyas.

And I guess I'm talking the Kaminoans at face value when they say that Sifo-Dyas is the guy who placed the order. It's not hard to imagine that they could have been duped by Dooku and Palpatine. I have to say that the more I think about Brian's explanation, it does make sense to me. It's just that my explanation still makes the most sense to me. That being said, based on what little is presented in the movie, I don't think either explanation can be seen as the definite correct answer.

#12 of 14 OFFLINE   jessi01

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Posted September 27 2011 - 06:09 PM

I could be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure that when Obi-Wan was discussing the matter with Mace Windu and Yoda, they mentioned that Sifo-Dyas was already dead at the time the army was originally ordered.

yeah right i remember it..

#13 of 14 ONLINE   Sam Favate

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Posted September 28 2011 - 01:38 AM

I just watched this film the other night, and I don't have a satisfactory answer, which kind of tells you all you need to know.



#14 of 14 OFFLINE   Pete-D

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Posted October 02 2011 - 06:02 PM

I could be wrong but I remember years ago when Ep. II was in early development that the character was named "Sydious" or something ... obviously meant to be "Sidious", but Lucas felt that too on the nose so he changed the name to "Syfo-Dyas". But basically its Palpatine. The less you think about AOTC the better, I think, lol.