Jump to content



Sign up for a free account to remove the pop-up ads

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests and remove the pop-up ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.

Photo
- - - - -

A few words about...™ The Lord of the Rings Trilogy - Extended Edition -- in Blu-ray

A Few Words About

  • You cannot start a new topic
  • Please log in to reply
1192 replies to this topic

#1181 of 1193 OFFLINE   Mark-P

Mark-P

    Screenwriter



  • 2,409 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 26 2005
  • Real Name:Mark Probst
  • LocationCamas, WA

Posted December 18 2013 - 12:40 PM

Any chance we might see LOTR:EE in UHD Blu-ray having each film on one disc? It's almost 2014.  Can't we get around this split-the-movie in half issue?

Why is that so important? The extended editions all run well over 3 hours each and the last film is over 4 hours. To avoid compression issues they are thankfully split over 2 platters and one quick bathroom break won't kill you. :)

#1182 of 1193 OFFLINE   Vincent_P

Vincent_P

    Screenwriter



  • 1,760 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 13 2003

Posted December 18 2013 - 04:04 PM

The LORD OF THE RINGS film can actually never exist in "true" Ultra HD since they were all post-produced at 2K resolution.  And "Ultra HD" releases would be upconverts.  I'm pretty sure THE HOBBIT films are also being finished at 2K, as well.

 

Vincent



#1183 of 1193 OFFLINE   JoshZ

JoshZ

    Second Unit



  • 419 posts
  • Join Date: May 26 2012
  • LocationBoston

Posted December 18 2013 - 07:36 PM

The LORD OF THE RINGS film can actually never exist in "true" Ultra HD since they were all post-produced at 2K resolution.  And "Ultra HD" releases would be upconverts.  I'm pretty sure THE HOBBIT films are also being finished at 2K, as well.

 

Vincent

 

IIRC, talk at the time of the first Hobbit movie was that it was shot at 5k, then post-produced at 4k, but that the HFR edition could only accommodate 2k distribution. I'm not sure about the new one.


Writer / Blogmaster

High-Def Digest


#1184 of 1193 OFFLINE   Jay G.

Jay G.

    Agent



  • 34 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 28 2007

Posted December 19 2013 - 08:06 AM

Any chance we might see LOTR:EE in UHD Blu-ray having each film on one disc? It's almost 2014.  Can't we get around this split-the-movie in half issue?

One: No Blu-ray will ever be in UHD. UHD will require some new video format for delivery (like REDRay, which isn't a disc format).Two: The Extended Edition Blu-rays maximize the quality of the Blu-ray format, with lossless audio and a relatively high video bitrate. They could've squeezed it all onto one disc, but they would've had to have at least halved the video bitrate and/or lost the lossless audio. The video quality would've been better than say an "HD" iTunes download, but not on par with other Blu-rays.http://www.avsforum....-blu-ray-reviewhttp://answers.yahoo...17151301AAEoUkZhttp://forum.blu-ray...ad.php?t=173381Keep in mind that even the best Blu-ray is still heavily compressed; you're only ever seeing a fraction of the data of the original; it's just usually compressed well enough that you don't notice.

IIRC, talk at the time of the first Hobbit movie was that it was shot at 5k, then post-produced at 4k, but that the HFR edition could only accommodate 2k distribution. I'm not sure about the new one.

The indication is that the first Hobbit was mastered at 2K for VFX reasons:http://www.reduser.n...70&pp=40&page=4The system they used was capable of outputting 4K or even 5K masters:http://www.tvtechnol...rticleid=220928A lot more info on the post production system they used:http://www.tvbeurope...in-middle-earthhttp://www.tvbeurope...-the-hobbit-hfrhttp://www.sgo.es/20...pected-journey/

#1185 of 1193 OFFLINE   FoxyMulder

FoxyMulder

    映画ファン



  • 5,027 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 14 2009
  • Real Name:Malcolm
  • LocationScotland

Posted December 19 2013 - 01:49 PM

One: No Blu-ray will ever be in UHD. UHD will require some new video format for delivery (like REDRay, which isn't a disc format). 

 

They will be using the H.265 codec and 100GB discs, i believe the intent is to make this work with new blu ray players and thus backwards compatible with existing technology, of course you need to invest in a new blu ray player but you needed to do that with 3D too, i prefer to call it 4K and not UHD.


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#1186 of 1193 OFFLINE   Jay G.

Jay G.

    Agent



  • 34 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 28 2007

Posted December 20 2013 - 07:08 AM

They will be using the H.265 codec and 100GB discs, i believe the intent is to make this work with new blu ray players and thus backwards compatible with existing technology, of course you need to invest in a new blu ray player but you needed to do that with 3D too, i prefer to call it 4K and not UHD.

 

The rumor of UHD Blu-ray discs apparently started in Sept because of this German press release:

http://www.singulus....ray-disc/7.html

 

Of course, the press release doesn't say that the 100GB discs will be used for 4K content, just that they could be used. No mention of any codecs was mentioned in the press release, that was added by news sites generating the rumors:

http://www.digital-d...-4K-Movies.html

 

As that link shows, 100GB discs aren't actually new, and are part of a standard called BDXL, which was defined by the BDA back in 2010. These higher capacity discs are not compatible with existing Blu-ray players:

https://en.wikipedia...u-ray_Disc#BDXL

 

If the BDA creates a disc that is higher capacity, uses a new codec, and displays a higher resolution, that's a new standard, on par with the DVD Forum creating the HD DVD standard. Completely new players will be needed to play the discs, and the discs won't be playable at all on standard Blu-ray players. The difference between that and Blu-ray 3D is that the 3D was considered an extension to the existing standards since while you needed a newer Blu-ray 3D compatible player to play those discs in 3D, older Blu-ray players could still play those discs in 2D.

 

 

Finally, doesn't 100GB for UHD seem kinda small? I mean, existing Blu-rays are 50GB, while UHD is 4x the resolution. When we switched from Standard Def DVD to 1080p Blu-ray, the jump in capacity was 5x, from 8.5GB to 50GB, over a 5x increase, while going to 100GB is just double.



#1187 of 1193 OFFLINE   FoxyMulder

FoxyMulder

    映画ファン



  • 5,027 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 14 2009
  • Real Name:Malcolm
  • LocationScotland

Posted December 20 2013 - 12:18 PM

 

If the BDA creates a disc that is higher capacity, uses a new codec, and displays a higher resolution, that's a new standard, on par with the DVD Forum creating the HD DVD standard. Completely new players will be needed to play the discs, and the discs won't be playable at all on standard Blu-ray players. The difference between that and Blu-ray 3D is that the 3D was considered an extension to the existing standards since while you needed a newer Blu-ray 3D compatible player to play those discs in 3D, older Blu-ray players could still play those discs in 2D.

 

Finally, doesn't 100GB for UHD seem kinda small? I mean, existing Blu-rays are 50GB, while UHD is 4x the resolution. When we switched from Standard Def DVD to 1080p Blu-ray, the jump in capacity was 5x, from 8.5GB to 50GB, over a 5x increase, while going to 100GB is just double.

 

I believe they are considering this an extension to the current blu ray standard too and i think the way it will work is they will sell a 1080p edition with the 4K version, if they don't do that i think it won't take off.

 

100GB is enough, the H.265 codec is supposed to get you near 2x times efficiency over the current H.264 codec they use, so 2x times capacity and 2 times codec efficiency covers the 4x times increase in resolution, also take into account most great looking films use around 30GB to 35GB, some use less, some use more, and i think it would work, hopefully they will give an announcement in the new year.

 

The big increase in size could come from using 10 or 12 bit colour, that requires more capacity, if they only increase resolution then i personally think it a waste, i want something better than the current 8 bit colour they use, resolution alone doesn't interest me.


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#1188 of 1193 OFFLINE   Chuck Anstey

Chuck Anstey

    Screenwriter



  • 1,590 posts
  • Join Date: Nov 10 1998
  • Real Name:Chuck Anstey

Posted December 20 2013 - 01:04 PM

Don't forget that the 50GB size came from Sony's original plan to use MPEG-2, a much less efficient codec that needed more size and greater bandwidth than VC-1 or H.264.  So in a sense, 50GB blu-ray is already oversized for the original intended purpose of a 2.5 hour movie given the actual codecs used.



#1189 of 1193 OFFLINE   Jari K

Jari K

    Producer



  • 3,255 posts
  • Join Date: May 16 2007

Posted December 20 2013 - 02:05 PM

Oversized? With movie, HD audio, dubs, subs, extras, PiP tracks, 3D versions... Less is not more. More is more.

#1190 of 1193 OFFLINE   Jay G.

Jay G.

    Agent



  • 34 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 28 2007

Posted December 21 2013 - 06:47 AM

I believe they are considering this an extension to the current blu ray standard too and i think the way it will work is they will sell a 1080p edition with the 4K version, if they don't do that i think it won't take off.

That's like calling Blu-ray an extension of DVD, since many Blu-rays include a DVD version of the movie as well. On a technical level, they won't be the same format, regardless of branding. 

100GB is enough, the H.265 codec is supposed to get you near 2x times efficiency over the current H.264 codec they use, so 2x times capacity and 2 times codec efficiency covers the 4x times increase in resolution...

H.264 is claimed to be "at least twice as efficient as MPEG-2", so the change from DVD to Blu-ray saw a 6x increase in resolution, but a more than 5x increase in capacity, along with at least 2x the codec efficiency. And that's still not enough to fit LOTR EE on one disc, or really eliminate all the compression artifacts and the like.http://pro-av.panaso.../technology.pdfAnd as you point out, if they increase the color depth, that's even more data and space they'll need. They could fit UHD onto 100GB discs, but much like early Blu-rays that "fit" onto 25GB discs with MPEG2 compression, the space likely isn't enough for a quality presentation.

#1191 of 1193 OFFLINE   FoxyMulder

FoxyMulder

    映画ファン



  • 5,027 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 14 2009
  • Real Name:Malcolm
  • LocationScotland

Posted December 21 2013 - 08:51 AM

That's like calling Blu-ray an extension of DVD, since many Blu-rays include a DVD version of the movie as well. On a technical level, they won't be the same format, regardless of branding. H.264 is claimed to be "at least twice as efficient as MPEG-2", so the change from DVD to Blu-ray saw a 6x increase in resolution, but a more than 5x increase in capacity, along with at least 2x the codec efficiency. And that's still not enough to fit LOTR EE on one disc, or really eliminate all the compression artifacts and the like.http://pro-av.panaso.../technology.pdfAnd as you point out, if they increase the color depth, that's even more data and space they'll need. They could fit UHD onto 100GB discs, but much like early Blu-rays that "fit" onto 25GB discs with MPEG2 compression, the space likely isn't enough for a quality presentation.

 

Everything i have read suggests they are calling it an extension to the blu ray format, by that i mean they are still going to be marketed as blu ray discs, long films have been a problem on every disc format, i know the technology is available to use much more capacity than 100GB, they have the tech now to reduce the pit size and the track pitch and increase disc capacity, they could get close to a terabyte by doing this but that would be a brand new format and they wish to make this an extension of blu ray.

 

DVD used a red laser, that's why blu ray cannot be called an extension of DVD, the 4K format will use the same blue ( violet ) laser and the exact same 405 nm laser diode and that's why it can be called an extension of that format.

 

It should also be noted that audio has greater potential with 4K content, the HDMI 2.0 spec allows far more audio channels, maybe Dolby Atmos for the home could become a possibility with this future tech, of course that means more disc space being used too.


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#1192 of 1193 OFFLINE   Jay G.

Jay G.

    Agent



  • 34 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 28 2007

Posted December 21 2013 - 01:54 PM

Everything i have read suggests they are calling it an extension to the blu ray format...

Could you please provide links to what you've read, because I can't find anything but rumors from September based on a misreading of a German press release for 100GB Blu-ray XL dics.To my mind, once a format is completely unreadable on a current player, it is no longer an extension of an existing format, but a new format entirely. The 100GB discs are in and of themselves not backwards compatible, and the H265 codec would be as well. This is in contrast to previous Blu-ray extensions like Profiles 2.0, 3.0, and 5.0 (aka 3D), where at least something was playable, typically the main feature, in previous players, if not with all possible extras or enhancements.Now, it's possible that the new format will continue the Blu-ray branding, calling itself something like Blu-ray UHD", akin to the "HD DVD" brand containing the term DVD in it. But it will still be a new format for all intents and purposes.

#1193 of 1193 OFFLINE   FoxyMulder

FoxyMulder

    映画ファン



  • 5,027 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 14 2009
  • Real Name:Malcolm
  • LocationScotland

Posted December 21 2013 - 02:55 PM

Could you please provide links to what you've read, because I can't find anything but rumors from September based on a misreading of a German press release for 100GB Blu-ray XL dics. 

 

That was not a misreading, they said they were ready with their production line for 4K with three layer blu ray using 100GB discs, i doubt Singulus would announce this unless the next generation blu ray extension was almost ready.

 

Just Google 4K and blu ray extension and the info is out there, new players will be backwards compatible with existing blu ray discs, is it rumour or is it true, well lets wait until the end of January 2014 and i'm sure we will find out, my gut tells me it's true.

 

Let's wait a month and then continue this conversation.  ;)


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#1194 of 1193 OFFLINE   Jay G.

Jay G.

    Agent



  • 34 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 28 2007

Posted December 21 2013 - 08:04 PM

That was not a misreading, they said they were ready with their production line for 4K with three layer blu ray using 100GB discs, i doubt Singulus would announce this unless the next generation blu ray extension was almost ready.

No. Reading the original press release, Singulus says that the 100GB discs are "ideal for," "suitable" for, and "in time for" 4K content, but not that the discs are part of any 4K standard. Their press release even states that the BDA has not yet established a new standard.As stated before, 100GB discs are already part of the Blu-ray XL standard, announced in 2010. That's all Singulus has done: made replication of these discs possible. They added the term 4K to jazz up their press release, and everyone took it and ran with it into rampant speculation. 

Just Google 4K and blu ray extension and the info is out there....

I've already googled for info, and the info I find is not what you've found, at least in terms of verifiable info. In fact, searching explicitly those terms you provided together gives nothing but a vague statement back in April by the BDA that they were stadying "a range of possible format extensions." Nothing more recent was found.http://www.cnet.com....r-339344088.htm

new players will be backwards compatible with existing blu ray discs...

This pretty much goes without saying. I mean, existing Blu-ray players are backwards compatible with DVD and CD. It would be foolish for anyone to release a new optical player for a new format that was not also backwards compatible with existing formats.Also, whether or not a new format is being planned is one thing. Whether it will contain the Blu-ray branding in some way is another. And whether it's considered a new format or an extension of an existing format is a matter of opinion. In my opinion, once a disc requires a completely new player to play at all, it's a new format, regardless of branding.Finally, in regards to my original response that sparked this tangent, I was responding to Brian Dobbs on the assumption that he was speaking about currently available technology, i.e. getting a disc now that would work on his current players that could store UHD on one disc. That's not going to happen. UHD on disc will require a new standard with more storage than Blu-ray, likely a different codec than Blu-ray, and support for higher resolutions than Blu-ray. Whether or not this new standard includes the word "Blu-ray" in it, it will be nearly as different from existing Blu-rays as HD DVD was from DVDs, excepting the color of the laser.

#1195 of 1193 OFFLINE   FoxyMulder

FoxyMulder

    映画ファン



  • 5,027 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 14 2009
  • Real Name:Malcolm
  • LocationScotland

Posted December 22 2013 - 02:00 AM

No. Reading the original press release, Singulus says that the 100GB discs are "ideal for," "suitable" for, and "in time for" 4K content, but not that the discs are part of any 4K standard. Their press release even states that the BDA has not yet established a new standard.

 

They didn't have a replication line for commercial blu ray reproduction, now they do, read into that what you may, call it a rumour, i'd say it's an educated guess that 4K will use 100GB discs, as i already said why don't we just wait and see what happens instead of going back and forth, i'm willing to do a little side bet with you that when it comes they will call it an extension of the blu ray format and it will use H.265 codec and it will come on 3 layer 100GB discs.

 

I wouldn't call it a brand new format, not while it uses the same pitch as blu ray and exact same laser, it's an extension to what we already have, indeed if it used the H.264 codec then it's very likely some blu ray players could play the discs with a firmware update, the only thing stopping that is the use of the H.265 codec, hardly a major new format as far as i am concerned.

 

Your opinion is it's a brand new format, my opinion is it's just an extension of current blu ray standards, lets agree to disagree and wait for new announcements from the BDA in January, i think that's when they intend to tell us more.


     :Fun Movie Quotes:

"A good body with a dull brain is as cheap as life itself"   

"Maybe it's a sheep dog... let's keep going" 

"Please doctor, I've got to ask this. It sounds like, well, just as though you're describing some form of super carrot"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 


#1196 of 1193 OFFLINE   Jay G.

Jay G.

    Agent



  • 34 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 28 2007

Posted December 22 2013 - 05:43 AM

They didn't have a replication line for commercial blu ray reproduction, now they do...

No, they've been in the business of Blu-ray replication lines since 2005:http://www.singulus....ay-disc/34.htmlhttp://www.singulus....osition/34.htmlhttp://www.singulus....atories/34.htmlhttp://www.singulus....es-worl/34.htmlThere's a reason why the new production line was called BLULINE IIIhttp://www.singulus....ray-disc/7.html

Your opinion is it's a brand new format, my opinion is it's just an extension of current blu ray standards, lets agree to disagree...

I'm fine with that. I don't care what the BDA says, if it's not playable on current Blu-ray players at all, then it's a new format.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users