-

Jump to content



Photo
- - - - -

Westerns year by year--recommend the best for blu


  • Please log in to reply
233 replies to this topic

#1 of 234 benbess

benbess

    Screenwriter

  • 1,831 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 07 2009

Posted May 06 2011 - 01:41 PM

We've actually done quite well when it comes to Westerns on blu. There are quite a few classics that are on the format and look great--including The Searchers, The Professionals, and Lonesome Dove. Just today I picked up at Target a Western I've never seen that they stock exclusively--The Magnificent Seven. It seems that Westerns are holding their own when it comes to blu-ray sales, because there are a lot of titles coming out just in the next few months.


When I was a kid I was not a fan of Westerns, preferring sci fi and other genres, but now I like em quite a bit, and for many years I've been slowly exploring this huge field. My best guide in book form for this exploration is the BFI Guide to the Western, which I recommend very highly. It covers the actual history of the West, as well as Western movies, TV shows, and more.


What I'm suggesting that we go year by year and try to pick out the best of the best of the Westerns as things we'd like to see on blu-ray someday. I realize most of the dreams won't come true, but we can still dream. And in the meantime it might give me and some others some better Westerns to watch on DVD if we get desperate.


The "A" Western was said to have been reborn with John Ford's Stagecoach of 1939. I'm not sure that's exactly right, but it seems like a good place to start with the year by year. Stagecoach has already come out on blu from Criterion.


But are there in fact silent Westerns from the 1920s or early sound Westerns of the 1930s before Stagecoach that you think are so good that they have commercial potential for blu-ray? How about a day or so on the pre 1939 Westerns, and then we'll head back to 1939 and Stagecoach....


http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/



#2 of 234 Matt Hough

Matt Hough

    Executive Producer

  • 11,043 posts
  • Join Date: Apr 24 2006
  • LocationCharlotte, NC

Posted May 06 2011 - 02:16 PM

Well, The Big Trail was John Wayne's first bid for stardom, but the film's failure relegated Wayne to B-Westerns until Stagecoach.


The Big Trail was also filmed in Grandeur, the first go at Cinemascope. The movie has been released on DVD in both Academy and widescreen ratios. I suspect most people would want a Blu-ray that offered both versions.



#3 of 234 JoHud

JoHud

    Screenwriter

  • 2,563 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 11 2007
  • Real Name:Joe Hudak

Posted May 06 2011 - 03:13 PM



Originally Posted by benbess 

The "A" Western was said to have been reborn with John Ford's Stagecoach of 1939. I'm not sure that's exactly right, but it seems like a good place to start with the year by year. Stagecoach has already come out on blu from Criterion.



Personally, I would say the most likely spark was The Plainsman in 1936, which was the first "A" western since RKO's Cimarron won best picture in 1931.  John Wayne even made a strong attempt to get cast as Wild Bill Hickock (which was delivered in turn when DeMille wanted Wayne for another western, Northwest Mounted Police)


While Stagecoach gets the most credit, the 1939 "A" western boom was more of a studio reaction of the runaway success of The Plainsman, with Fox's Jesse James, UA's Stagecoach, Warner Brothers' Dodge City, and Paramount's Union Pacific, a followup to Demille's last western.  All four were released within a period of 4 months.  Universal squeezed in Destry Rides Again for December that year.


Columbia, MGM, and Samuel Goldwyn followed up with Arizona, Northwest Passage, and The Westerner the following year, respectively.  Even Republic splurged on their release of Dark Command.


RKO, unless I'm mistaken, seemed to use this boom for their own line of "B" Westerns until the late 40s brought some "A" standard John Ford films.


It makes sense that Stagecoach get the credit, though--it's the only one out of that boom that propelled a "B" starring actor to "A" status.  And out of all of these, Stagecoach is the only one of this era that has gotten a Blu-ray release.


In regards to best potential candidates for a future blu-ray, Dodge City and Northwest Passage are main contenders because those two are in Technicolor in addition to their A status (Northwest Mounted Police should be, but since its an unreleased Universal....not very likely).


Anything in the Republic library has but a ghost of a chance--though Lionsgate may deem worthy High Noon, if nothing else.




#4 of 234 benbess

benbess

    Screenwriter

  • 1,831 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 07 2009

Posted May 07 2011 - 02:11 AM



Originally Posted by MattH. 

Well, The Big Trail was John Wayne's first bid for stardom, but the film's failure relegated Wayne to B-Westerns until Stagecoach.


The Big Trail was also filmed in Grandeur, the first go at Cinemascope. The movie has been released on DVD in both Academy and widescreen ratios. I suspect most people would want a Blu-ray that offered both versions.

I've seen this film in the widescreen version. Although at times it is slow moving, it is still entertaining, and the widescreen PQ from Fox Grandeur is impressive for a film from 1930. This is the film that literally gave Marion Morrison the John Wayne name, and it is quite interesting to see him at the age of 23. This was his first starring role, and its failure doomed the "A" Western for several years, and relegated Wayne to B Westerns until Stagecoach. The Big Trail had a lavish budget of $2 million--and the losses on it helped kill off widescreen until after World War II.

The Wayne name still sells. Simple as that. My guess is that this one has a chance of making it to blu-ray. It's an amazing story of how the 70mm negative was saved.



from wikipedia:

... For his screen name, Walsh suggested "Anthony Wayne", after Revolutionary War general "Mad Anthony" Wayne. Fox Studios chief Winfield Sheehan rejected it as sounding "too Italian." Walsh then suggested "John Wayne." Sheehan agreed, and the name was set. Wayne himself was not even present for the discussion....



In the early 1980s, the Museum of Modern Art in New York City, which housed the 65mm nitrate camera negative for The Big Trail, wanted to preserve the film but found that the negative was too shrunken and fragile to be copied and that no film lab would touch it. They went to Karl Malkames, an accomplished cinematographer and a leading specialist and pioneer in film reproduction, restoration, and preservation. Malkames was known to be a “problem solver” when it came to restoring early odd-gauge format films. He immediately set about designing and building a special printer to handle the careful frame-by-frame reproduction of the negative to a 35mm anamorphic (CinemaScope) fine grain master. The printer copied at a speed of one frame a second. This was a painstaking year-long undertaking that Malkames oversaw from start to finish. It is solely because of him that this film survives in this version.

The 70mm version was seen on cable television at a time when only the 35mm version had been released to VHS and DVD. A two-disc DVD was released in the US on May 13, 2008, containing both versions. This movie comes on Fox Movie Channel sometimes.

Another widescreen western was also produced the same year, Billy the Kid, starring John Mack Brown as Billy the Kid and Wallace Beery as Pat Garrett. No widescreen prints of Billy the Kid survive; only a standard-width version shot simultaneously remains.


 Two versions

Beyond the format difference, the 70mm and 35mm versions vary substantially from each other. They were shot by different cameras, and footage for each format was edited separately in the cutting room. Some scenes were shot simultaneously by both cameras, the only difference being the angle (with the better angle usually given to the 70mm camera). Some scenes were shot first by one camera, and then retaken with the other camera. The 70mm cameras could not focus well up close, so the shots were mainly panoramas with very few close-ups. The 35mm cameras could move in and focus at short distances. Thus scenes in the 70mm version might show two characters talking to each other in the same take, while in the 35mm would have close-up shots cutting back and forth between the two characters.

In the editing of the films, some scenes were edited out for one version but allowed to remain in the other version. The 35mm version was edited to be shorter (108 minutes rather than 122 minutes), so many scenes in the 70mm version are not found in the 35mm film. However, there are a few scenes in the 35mm version not found in the 70mm.

The 70mm version has been released on VHS as well as DVD in its widescreen original, but also reformatted to fit a traditional TV screen, despite the availability of the 35mm version which is closer to that format. The 35mm version is included along with the 70mm version in the 2008 2-disc DVD release.



http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/




#5 of 234 JoHud

JoHud

    Screenwriter

  • 2,563 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 11 2007
  • Real Name:Joe Hudak

Posted May 07 2011 - 02:56 AM



Originally Posted by benbess 

Another widescreen western was also produced the same year, Billy the Kid, starring John Mack Brown as Billy the Kid and Wallace Beery as Pat Garrett. No widescreen prints of Billy the Kid survive; only a standard-width version shot simultaneously remains.


Very interesting--Billy the Kidd was another "A" western that was attempted (and apparently underperformed) with a widescreen format in mind before the lump in "A" westerns.


I also found this website to have a good overview of a the very brief push for widescreen from 1926-1931.  Makes me wonder if any "Vitascopes" of that era survive as well (sound on disk and 65mm?--must have been a beast to operate then let alone restore years later).



#6 of 234 benbess

benbess

    Screenwriter

  • 1,831 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 07 2009

Posted May 07 2011 - 02:59 AM



Originally Posted by JoHud 




Personally, I would say the most likely spark was The Plainsman in 1936, which was the first "A" western since RKO's Cimarron won best picture in 1931.  John Wayne even made a strong attempt to get cast as Wild Bill Hickock (which was delivered in turn when DeMille wanted Wayne for another western, Northwest Mounted Police)


While Stagecoach gets the most credit, the 1939 "A" western boom was more of a studio reaction of the runaway success of The Plainsman, with Fox's Jesse James, UA's Stagecoach, Warner Brothers' Dodge City, and Paramount's Union Pacific, a followup to Demille's last western.  All four were released within a period of 4 months.  Universal squeezed in Destry Rides Again for December that year.


Columbia, MGM, and Samuel Goldwyn followed up with Arizona, Northwest Passage, and The Westerner the following year, respectively.  Even Republic splurged on their release of Dark Command.


RKO, unless I'm mistaken, seemed to use this boom for their own line of "B" Westerns until the late 40s brought some "A" standard John Ford films.


It makes sense that Stagecoach get the credit, though--it's the only one out of that boom that propelled a "B" starring actor to "A" status.  And out of all of these, Stagecoach is the only one of this era that has gotten a Blu-ray release.


In regards to best potential candidates for a future blu-ray, Dodge City and Northwest Passage are main contenders because those two are in Technicolor in addition to their A status (Northwest Mounted Police should be, but since its an unreleased Universal....not very likely).


Anything in the Republic library has but a ghost of a chance--though Lionsgate may deem worthy High Noon, if nothing else.


JoHud has it right here, obviously. At this point I'm somewhat annoyed at how people just trot out the lie that Wayne and Ford saved the "A" Western. They helped, but to say what Criterion says right now on their website seems shallow and not really accurate, and I bet they know it:


"This is where it all started. John Ford’s smash hit and enduring masterpiece Stagecoach revolutionized the western, elevating it from B movie to the A-list and establishing the genre as we know it today."


Saying Cecil B. DeMille saved the "A" Western in 1936 is just not a popular thing to say, but in fact the big budget epic The Plainsman, with Gary Cooper, was a huge hit which brought about those other films that JoHud mentions. I've seen this, and I think it's one of DeMille's best and one of Cooper's best as well. I think it would be worthy of a blu-ray, but since it seems to be owned by Universal that seems highly unlikely. This film is much less racist than most Westerns until the 50s iirc.

Aside from Stagecoach, I have not seen any of the other "A" Westerns that Johud shows were part of the 1939 "A" Western boom inspired by The Plainsman. Oh, that's wrong. I have seen Union Pacific, which is spectacular DeMille hokum, but marred by some of the worst racism found in Western films of this era, which seems ironic after what DeMille did with the Plainsman.


http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/




#7 of 234 benbess

benbess

    Screenwriter

  • 1,831 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 07 2009

Posted May 07 2011 - 04:18 AM



Originally Posted by JoHud 




Very interesting--Billy the Kidd was another "A" western that was attempted (and apparently underperformed) with a widescreen format in mind before the lump in "A" westerns.


I also found this website to have a good overview of a the very brief push for widescreen from 1926-1931.  Makes me wonder if any "Vitascopes" of that era survive as well (sound on disk and 65mm?--must have been a beast to operate then let alone restore years later).


JoHud: That's a fascinating site about that early push for widescreen. Thanks.


I saw The Plainsman on vhs in the 90s, and I thought Boris Karloff played an Indian chief in that one. But when I looked at the credits on imdb, I couldn't find him. I guess I'm wrong. But did Karloff play an Indian in another movie around this time?


Here's another famous Western that's kind of famous, but I ultimately don't think it will ever make it to blu--the 1929 early sound version of The Virginian starring Gary Cooper, Walter Huston, and directed by Victor Fleming. I also saw this one on vhs in the 90s. Part of the reason I don't think it'll make it to blu is that the print was in terrible shape, and the sound was awful. And yet still the power of the drama somewhat came through for me. It was haunting when Cooper's Virginian had to help doom his former friend Trampas to death. Interesting that they made Trampas a good guy for the Western TV series in the 60s.


http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/






#8 of 234 benbess

benbess

    Screenwriter

  • 1,831 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 07 2009

Posted May 07 2011 - 04:28 AM

I'm probably missing something, but the only silent Western that I think might be considered for blu-ray is John Ford's 1924 epic The Iron Horse. By this time Ford had already directed a couple dozen films, many of them Westerns, and almost all of them lost. This one was even released on DVD a few years ago. The reviews seem mixed, with some saying it's a terrible bore, and other's saying it's classic John Ford. Haven't seen it myself...


http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/



#9 of 234 Cinescott

Cinescott

    Supporting Actor

  • 838 posts
  • Join Date: Nov 02 2010
  • Real Name:Scott
  • LocationMilwaukee, WI

Posted May 07 2011 - 08:41 AM

Finally saw "The Searchers." Great movie. Monument Valley's never looked better on-screen. Can't believe they dealt so openly with issues like racism and rape in the 50s, but that's what makes this movie so good. Lots to think about.


"There are two types of people in the world, my friend. Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."


#10 of 234 Guest__*

Guest__*
  • Join Date: --

Posted May 07 2011 - 12:23 PM

I wish they would release Lonesome Dove in a full-frame version since that is how I saw it on CBS.



#11 of 234 Matt Hough

Matt Hough

    Executive Producer

  • 11,043 posts
  • Join Date: Apr 24 2006
  • LocationCharlotte, NC

Posted May 07 2011 - 01:26 PM

I haven't seen The Virginian in about forty years. When I was growing up, a local TV station owned a syndication package of early Paramount sound features which is where I first saw the early Marx Brothers movies (I especially remember The Cocoanuts because it was SO primitive), early films with Cary Grant opposite Dietrich and Mae West and Sylvia Sidney and Tallulah Bankhead, Alice in Wonderland, and The Virginian. Seeing those classics shown over and over during a period of months was a great film education for me.



#12 of 234 benbess

benbess

    Screenwriter

  • 1,831 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 07 2009

Posted May 07 2011 - 10:43 PM



Originally Posted by Cinescott 

Finally saw "The Searchers." Great movie. Monument Valley's never looked better on-screen. Can't believe they dealt so openly with issues like racism and rape in the 50s, but that's what makes this movie so good. Lots to think about.


Yes, it is a rather grim movie in places, isn't it, and yet at the same time quite amazingly beautiful. You go back and forth between really disliking Wayne's character and then the next moment admiring him and feeling for him. That was clearly what was wanted by John Wayne and John Ford for this character. Although it is a critique of racism, it is also in some ways a racist film, I think, which is not really surprising given the era. But it's pretty much tough on both sides. It can be read on one level as showing the costs of extremism on either side...


It's subtle, but did you notice the feelings that Wayne has for his brother's wife? That's obviously part of what motivates his near madness after what happens to her.


You probably saw it already, Cinescott, but on another thread I recommended the little book by Edward Buscombe on The Searchers. He's a huge admirer of the film, and he helped me understand better what makes it one of the greatest Westerns ever.



#13 of 234 benbess

benbess

    Screenwriter

  • 1,831 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 07 2009

Posted May 07 2011 - 10:49 PM



Originally Posted by eric scott richard 

I wish they would release Lonesome Dove in a full-frame version since that is how I saw it on CBS.



Yes, they messed with the original aspect ratio to make it a widescreen film. In principle I'm against that kind of modification. But in practice I actually really enjoy the two TV shows I have that have been modified from 1.33 to 1.78. The other example is the 90s BBC production of Pride and Prejudice.


#14 of 234 benbess

benbess

    Screenwriter

  • 1,831 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 07 2009

Posted May 07 2011 - 10:50 PM



Originally Posted by MattH. 

I haven't seen The Virginian in about forty years. When I was growing up, a local TV station owned a syndication package of early Paramount sound features which is where I first saw the early Marx Brothers movies (I especially remember The Cocoanuts because it was SO primitive), early films with Cary Grant opposite Dietrich and Mae West and Sylvia Sidney and Tallulah Bankhead, Alice in Wonderland, and The Virginian. Seeing those classics shown over and over during a period of months was a great film education for me.


It's amazing, isn't it, how some of these early film experiences stay with us over the decades...




#15 of 234 benbess

benbess

    Screenwriter

  • 1,831 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 07 2009

Posted May 07 2011 - 10:56 PM

I think that WB has had quite a lot of success with their blu-ray of The Adventures of Robin Hood starring Errol Flynn and Olivia de Havilland. I mean I saw it stocked at my local Target blu-ray section just a few days ago--one of the handful of movies from before 1950 that were available. And now that I think about it, the other two were WB titles as well--Wizard of OZ and GWTW.


Anyway, there might be a commercial case for these Westerns on that basis....but, they aren't really among the greatest classics of the genre, and so probably WB should look at other titles first.


In any case, we are now at the year 1940. Are there any Westerns from 1940 that seem classic enough to deserve the blu-ray treatment?


http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/



#16 of 234 Cinescott

Cinescott

    Supporting Actor

  • 838 posts
  • Join Date: Nov 02 2010
  • Real Name:Scott
  • LocationMilwaukee, WI

Posted May 07 2011 - 11:07 PM



Originally Posted by benbess 




Yes, it is a rather grim movie in places, isn't it, and yet at the same time quite amazingly beautiful. You go back and forth between really disliking Wayne's character and then the next moment admiring him and feeling for him. That was clearly what was wanted by John Wayne and John Ford for this character. Although it is a critique of racism, it is also in some ways a racist film, I think, which is not really surprising given the era. But it's pretty much tough on both sides. It can be read on one level as showing the costs of extremism on either side...


It's subtle, but did you notice the feelings that Wayne has for his brother's wife? That's obviously part of what motivates his near madness after what happens to her.


You probably saw it already, Cinescott, but on another thread I recommended the little book by Edward Buscombe on The Searchers. He's a huge admirer of the film, and he helped me understand better what makes it one of the greatest Westerns ever.


Ben, I did notice that Ford seemed to make a point of Wayne's "fondness" for his brother's wife. A little too fond, especially for a 50s movie.


It's so interesting how Wayne's character Ethan could get away with lines like "you speak pretty good American, for a Comanche." I cringed when I heard that after all the racial sensitivity we've all been raised to have for the last 40 years. Interesting how the Indians are all painted Europeans too. Ethan's a character that you do love or hate at different times in the movie. I sampled bits of the commentary and it was mentioned how this was the first movie to deal with extremely violent issues like rape by showing the reaction to it rather than the act itself. A stylistic mechanism to introduce concepts that could have never been dealt with before. The Jeanie was out of the bottle after that.


I wonder why Ford places the movie in "Texas 1868" when it is so obviously the then Arizona/Utah Territory. I'd imagine even 50 years ago audiences could recognize the location. He could have easily turned the Comanche into Navajo and avoided any inconsistency. Maybe the Comanche were known to be more fierce, but then most audiences would not have known that.

I haven't heard about the Buscombe book, but it sounds really good; I'll check it out. Thanks.


I just listened to another commentary that mentioned how no one's been able to better John Ford's photography of Monument Valley since this movie and I'd tend to agree with them.



"There are two types of people in the world, my friend. Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."


#17 of 234 benbess

benbess

    Screenwriter

  • 1,831 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 07 2009

Posted May 07 2011 - 11:20 PM

Cinescott: Yes, it's sometimes been jarring to me to that it is so obviously not Texas. But over time I've come to see that it's majestic and stands for a fantasy filmic Texas. We're not really in Texas, we are in the made up world of the movies, and in some ways Ford is quite clear about that and invites us to be part of the make believe...


Notice also how Ethan's brother's wife feels the same way about him...



#18 of 234 benbess

benbess

    Screenwriter

  • 1,831 posts
  • Join Date: Sep 07 2009

Posted May 07 2011 - 11:27 PM

The Westerner. Haven't seen it in almost 20 years, but iirc Brennan steals the show--and in fact won the Oscar I think for this role as Judge Roy Bean pining after Lillie Langtry (played by Lillian Bond, pictured below, in a very brief role). Cooper is good too. Is this one owned by WB? I'd say it might be a candidate for blu.... It's a subtle Western with humor, rather than an action adventure kind of yarn. It's about mercy, the changing times and changing generations, celebrity, and the pathetic last wishes of a man in love with an image that he gets to meet. I've built it up into maybe more than it is. It's a B+ Western maybe, that seems better in retrospect than when you're watching it. But I'd still say it's better than the Errol Flynn movies, even though they are no doubt a lot of fun at times. It's directed by William Wyler, who I consider one of the great directors of thoughtful movies. Like Ford he'd done a lot of Oaters in the silent 20s, and now that the genre was reborn it was almost his tip of the hat to the films that had started his career.


http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/http://static.hometh...um.com/imgrepo/



#19 of 234 Robert Crawford

Robert Crawford

    Moderator

  • 24,513 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 09 1998
  • Real Name:Robert
  • LocationMichigan

Posted May 07 2011 - 11:44 PM



Originally Posted by benbess 

The Westerner. Haven't seen it in almost 20 years, but iirc Brennan steals the show--and in fact won the Oscar I think for this role as Judge Roy Bean pining after Lillie Langtry (played by Lillian Bond, pictured below, in a very brief role). Cooper is good too. Is this one owned by WB? I'd say it might be a candidate for blu.... It's a subtle Western with humor, rather than an action adventure kind of yarn. It's about mercy, the changing times and changing generations, celebrity, and the pathetic last wishes of a man in love with an image that he gets to meet. I've built it up into maybe more than it is. It's a B+ Western maybe, that seems better in retrospect than when you're watching it. But I'd still say it's better than the Errol Flynn movies, even though they are no doubt a lot of fun at times. It's directed by William Wyler, who I consider one of the great directors of thoughtful movies. Like Ford he'd done a lot of Oaters in the silent 20s, and now that the genre was reborn it was almost his tip of the hat to the films that had started his career.





It's a former United Artists title that now is owned by MGM so Fox will distribute it if it ever comes out on BRD.  I seriously doubt that will happen, but a HD broadcast of it might be possible one day.








Crawdaddy



Crawdaddy

 

Blu-ray Preorder Schedule

 


#20 of 234 Robert Crawford

Robert Crawford

    Moderator

  • 24,513 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 09 1998
  • Real Name:Robert
  • LocationMichigan

Posted May 07 2011 - 11:53 PM



Originally Posted by Cinescott 




I wonder why Ford places the movie in "Texas 1868" when it is so obviously the then Arizona/Utah Territory. I'd imagine even 50 years ago audiences could recognize the location. He could have easily turned the Comanche into Navajo and avoided any inconsistency. Maybe the Comanche were known to be more fierce, but then most audiences would not have known that.



He places it in Texas because that's where it took place from the original source material.  Also, Ethan coming home as a former Confederate soldier works better if he's from Texas and not Arizona/Utah.



Back in 1955/1956, Americans were a lot less mobile than they are today.  I had no idea what Texas looked like back then as the media and television coverage in those years were pretty limited to exposing what other areas of the country looked like to most Americans except maybe California, NYC, DC and Florida to name a few places.  Those that are from Texas and Arizona and those that have visited out there knew that didn't look like Texas, but for many of us, we were just plain ignorant which the movie industry counted on with many of their film project locations.


Crawdaddy

 

Blu-ray Preorder Schedule

 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users