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2 'lesser quality' subs = 1 'good' sub?


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#21 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 15 2011 - 08:13 AM

Construction is exactly the same.  Find a proven design.  The crossover required soldering skills but I've taught that to people in 10 minutes.  Here are the main speakers I am working on - http://www.speakerbu.../D3/dayton3.htm


My current speakers are a center DIII (see above) and a pair of DII's - http://www.speakerbu...s/D2/d2main.htm


As you can see from the DIII diagrams, the construction is really easy.  It's a box with a single brace / port flare.  Before you glue the front on, you glue in the crossovers.  I've spent more time finishing them with automotive paint (Bondo, sand, primer, sand, primer, sand, paint, paint, paint, clear, clear, clear) than it took building the box.


If you need smaller, I have plans.  If you need massive towers, I have plans.  Any of these will easily beat speakers from Best Buy and other big box stores.  If you want to go critical listening then you can as well if your budget will handle it.



#22 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 16 2011 - 12:45 AM

robert j,

i love it

i was planning to buy a pair of svs STS-02  with scs-02 center and a pair sss-02 bipole surrounds

cost was going to be $1260 plus shipping., but the towers are out of stock, so im stuck.

you have anything DIY up your sleeve that can compete?


as far as soldering goes, i can solder. i dont know if im an expert or a novice solderer, its not like i have ever competed in a soldering competition to find out, but im pretty sure i can handle whatever it takes.



#23 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 16 2011 - 03:05 AM

The Tri-Trix gets great reviews - http://www.parts-exp...umber=300-702   http://www.parts-exp...project=Tritrix

You can build a taller cabinet for the DIII and make a tower out of it.  Just seal off the top portion to keep the internal volume the same or you will mess up the tuning frequency of the port.

The Dayton 8 rocks but it is the largest of the tower designs - http://www.angelfire.../music5/audio0/

Other PE projects - http://www.parts-exp...rojectindex.cfm

db's speaker designs - https://sites.google.../home/speakers  His db61tl is in the Project Showcase.  He has designs using both the Dayton Classic drivers (budget) and the newer Dayton RS drivers ($$$).


I think that any of db's or Wayne's designs will compete in quality.  Compete with the more sensitive SVS towers, I'd choose at least a dual 6.5" design.


There is nothing magical about SVS speakers compared to any of these designs.  I've seen the build process of speakers that cost $55,000 / pair and it is no different than what I do in my garage.  They have better tools and can crank out a pair a week where it would take me 6 months.  We both use MDF for the box and PVC for the port.  They use factory Porsche paint while I use Rustoleum in a rattle can.  They have someone optimize their crossover design.  I use a published design that has been optimized for my budget.  Like my wife said when we listened to them - "They sound better than our speakers.  But not $54,800 better."



#24 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 16 2011 - 06:49 AM

Robert

lets say i build the tritrix kit. how much do i need to worry about all this 'timber match' stuff when i get/make the center and surround? (i dont even know if the surrounds are typically considered when worrying about timber matching). and, now that i admit to knowing nothing about the timber match concept other than they should have similar resonance (right?), would simply making a center out of 3/4" MDF suffice? or is there more to it than that?


I am already figuring out when i can make these. Posted Image



#25 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 16 2011 - 07:20 AM

In a perfect world. you would use 5 or 7 identical speakers.  The next step is the front 3 being identical.  It is very rare that anyone does either of these.


Since the Tri-Trix uses the Dayton Classic 6.5" and the silk dome tweeter, I'd go with db's center channel design that uses the same drivers - https://sites.google...peakers/db616c  The crossover isn't the same but you will be closer to matching that 90% of the systems being used.


Unless you are building a very small speaker, you should build them out of 3/4" MDF.


Speaker building is addictive.  There isn't a day that I'm not listening to my system and I think to myself "Hey self.  I built those and they sound great!"



#26 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 16 2011 - 10:01 AM

ok, so im now drawn to the dayton 8 you linked, but i dont know why. anyway, so what youre telling me is i need to build a center using 8" drivers, correct?

so i have to search/get a plan for a center with 8" drivers.


question: the dayton 8 you linked lists a certain 8" driver from dayton. suppose instead i replaced it with a different dayton 8" driver (a 'better' one). would the cabinet dimensions need to be adjusted?





#27 of 218 OFFLINE   gene c

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Posted March 16 2011 - 11:26 AM




Originally Posted by Robert_J 

In a perfect world. you would use 5 or 7 identical speakers.  The next step is the front 3 being identical.  It is very rare that anyone does either of these.


Since the Tri-Trix uses the Dayton Classic 6.5" and the silk dome tweeter, I'd go with db's center channel design that uses the same drivers - https://sites.google...peakers/db616c  The crossover isn't the same but you will be closer to matching that 90% of the systems being used.


Unless you are building a very small speaker, you should build them out of 3/4" MDF.


Speaker building is addictive.  There isn't a day that I'm not listening to my system and I think to myself "Hey self.  I built those and they sound great!"



Actually, the Tri-Trix uses the 5 1/4" version and not the 6 1/2" one Posted Image .


I built a pair of these last summer. I bought the cabinets by themselves and then the drivers/tweeters on sale and just used one of the PE pre-assembled two-way crossovers. They turned out to be very nice speakers. The tweeters in particular are very good for the price. I covered the cabinets with country cottage style thin 1/4" knotty pine and stained them in Country Maple. I sold them at the local community college flea-market for $150. Lost a few bucks on them but had a lot of fun building them. But sometimes having fun costs a little money.


As Robert said, ideally you want the front speakers to be as close to each other as possible, but in reality that just isn't possible. If I were building the 8" towers I wouldn't try and build a matching dual 8" center, I'd probably drop down to a dual 6" model (from the same Classic series as the 8") and let Audyssey or MCACC (or whatever) try and smooth out the sound. BTW, my Swan Diva towers and matching C3 center use the exact same drivers/mid-range/tweeters and don't really sound all that much alike so...Maybe it's the difference in cabinet size.



It looks like Robert has been a bad influence on you Posted Image ! Just remember, when it comes to speaker size and subwoofer output, he's just plain nuts! (but in a good way Posted Image ). But it's nice to see someone else getting into speaker building. I've done a few myself and really like getting creative with cabinet design and appearance while staying true to the internal dimensions.


My next project is going to be real ambitious for me. Dual 8" PE Reference series drivers, a 5" Reference mid and Hi-Vi 1" ring radiating tweeter with a cabinet made from 1 1/4" oak laminate stair boards from Home Depot. I hope PE can help me out with the crossover and cabinet dimensions.











"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#28 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 16 2011 - 12:14 PM

I need to do my research before posting about driver size.  I'm used to seeing the pin cushion shaped 5.25" driver.  I keep forgetting it now comes in a round shape.  Thanks for the correction Gene.  I agree with you about the silk dome tweeters.  They sound like they are worth much more.  If PE can't help you with your crossovers, the guys at the Tech Talk Board can.


My system has the potential for crazy output but I don't turn it up that much.  0db on the volume know is downright scary.  Normal TV with me and the wife is -25db.  Me alone with an action movie is -15db.  I want the potential for overkill so that I don't push my system into distortion.


I build speakers because I like the woodworking and the science behind the design.  That's one reason I've taken my sub building to the next level and I'm actually build the driver from parts.  I just finished my 2nd one last week.  My first was based on a TC Sounds, TC9 magnet structure.  This one was based on a TC Sounds TC7 magnet structure.  I almost have enough parts to build four subs similar to this - http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=293-658 and four subs similar to this  - http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=293-642 .


#29 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 17 2011 - 01:23 PM

going to try to hunt down some 3/4 mdf tomorrow.


robert, i cant seem to find a plan for that dayton 8 you linked. i can figure out the main dimensions of the box from the content on the page, but im guessing theres some other info i will need?





#30 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 18 2011 - 01:42 AM

http://replay.waybac...dayton_8MTM.htm

http://techtalk.part...t=214525&page=2


Looks like Ted's original D8 page has gone.  Even the wayback machine is having trouble finding it.  The crossover information is there so that takes care of most of it.  The cabinet dimensions can be close.



#31 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 18 2011 - 02:37 AM

how close is close?

i saw internal measurements listed on the angelfire page as  49” x 16.5” x 9.5”.

so for external add 3/4 and 3/4 for the front is 50.5".

but it would be extremely helpful if that measurement was 48"

that would make the internal measurement 46.5 x 16.5 x 9.5.

difference is 0.13 cubic feet

no big deal? from what i see, thats not a problem at all. they seem to be saying these can go from 2 to 4cu.ft. so .13 feet doesnt matter




#32 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 18 2011 - 04:33 AM

The back is 9.5" x 49"
The sides are 17.26" x 49".

Top / bottom / braces 16.5" x 9.5".

Front 49" x 11.1"


Cut all of the speaker holes, brace holes, port hole and terminal cup hole.


Attach the top/bottom and a brace or 2 by gluing them directly to the back.  I use a right angle clamp http://www1.mscdirec..._-SearchResults to make sure the board are making a perpendicular connection.  My clamps came from Harbor Freight and cost about $2 each.  Use Titebond II wood glue.


Important.  Don't put the top/bottom boards on the exact edge of the back piece.  Scoot them in about 1/16".  Once the cabinet is complete, you will use a flush trim bit on a router to make a perfect edge.


Once all of those boards have dried, remove the clamps. Lay down one side on your work surface and glue your back/top/bottom/brace assembly to the side.  Make sure the edges match up in the front.  You should have about 1/16" overhang on the top/bottom/back for later routing.  Repeat for the other side.  Flush trim tutorial


Once those are dry, put the front on.  It should be slightly oversized and hang off all sides.  Again, you will route this later.


Route the edges with a flush trim bit http://www.mlcswoodw.../bt_flush.html  This will give you a perfect joint every time.  Since you only glued the boxes together (no nails or screws), you can round over the edges with a different bit.


For finishing, I use a sanding sealer.  Sand lightly.  Sealer again.  Sand lightly.  High fill primer.  Sand.  Finish primer.  Sand.  Paint.  Paint.  Really light sand.  Clear.  Clear.  Clear.  Buff to a high gloss.



#33 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 18 2011 - 09:49 AM

thanks robert


next questions will come up later when i start the finishing, cause thats kinda new to me.

stay tuned



#34 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 19 2011 - 07:15 AM

ok so i lied about what the next question would be:


any reason i cant use a jigsaw to cut the holes?

i dont want to spend 30ish dollars for a router jig thing.

i can pick up some hole saw things for cheap to cut the brace holes and maybe the tweeter hole.


partsexpress website is down btw. that sucks



#35 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 19 2011 - 03:40 PM

A jigsaw won't let you countersink the drivers.  For a couple of speakers, the Jasper Jig isn't a great deal.  But you can make your own and get within 1/16" of an inch.  All it takes is a piece of 1/4" hard board and an accurate ruler.


#36 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 19 2011 - 06:00 PM

countersink the speaker holes? i thought they were going in flush?




#37 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 19 2011 - 06:18 PM

i was hoping to cut the holes today (sunday), if oyu can clear up this countersink stuff, that would be cool.

i will need some dimensions if its not going to be a simple 8" hole.

thanks again





#38 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 19 2011 - 11:56 PM

It's never a good idea to cut speaker holes without the speaker to test fit.  But if you go through with this, PE has all of the information you need.  Looking at the specs for the 8" Dayton Classic, I see the following:


Overall Diameter: 8-1/16" - Using the information from the DIII instructions, the flush mount recess should be about 3/8" deep.  I'd set the radius at 4 1/16" for the first pass.  Hopefully you are using a spiral upcut bit as if you were using a Jasper Jig.  Change the settings to move in 1/2" and repeat the recess.

Cutout Diameter: 7-5/16" - For this hole, you are cutting completely through the wood.


Tweeter:  See the DIII instructions since they share the same tweeter.


A quick search of YouTube (key words Jasper Jig) will show you how it works as well as how to make DIY jigs.



#39 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 20 2011 - 02:51 AM

thanks

believe it or not, i have never done any of this before


#40 of 218 OFFLINE   winniw

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Posted March 20 2011 - 04:14 AM

Let me start by saying that I respect Rober J's knowledge and expertise but I have some speaker building experience myself and I do not believe it is necessary to flush mount the woofer.  Sonic performance is not enhanced by it.  Flush mounting is very important for tweeters though.

Since this is Mike's first build and since he has limited tool selection, it may be best to just cut a hole and surface mount the woofer.  And I agree with Robert that cutting the hole without the driver there in front of you is risky.


Nick