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2 'lesser quality' subs = 1 'good' sub?


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#1 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 10 2011 - 12:53 AM

im guessing 2 lower quality subs would not equate to 1 quality sub, but not sure. of course, we would have to quantify what 'lower quality' means, and what 'quality' means, but anyway.

heres the deal:

im trying to put together a system.

ive seen many good things said about the bic f12 and v-1220, and the pricing on these is nice. was seriously considering those.

but, im pretty certain i will be buying svs speakers, and svs of course has good rep on its subs as well, so i was going to just get an svs sub. then i saw the prices, and the svs sub (PC12 NSD) would be more than triple the cost of the bic.


so first off, the bics appear to be so highly regarded around here, would 1 of them be a suitable replacement for the PC12 NSD, or is the SVS line too fantastic?
secondly, would a dual bic setup somehow produce better results than the single svs unit?


also, i am implying that the bic product is 'lesser quality' only for the purposes of my questions. for all i know, bic is the quality sub and svs is the lesser.

any advice/info on this would be appreciated.


thanks




#2 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 10 2011 - 01:32 AM

2 lesser subs = louder, lower quality bass.  A 2nd sub adds no more extension or really lowers the distortion.

1 better sub = better extension (plays lower) and lower distortion.


BIC is a great sub for the price.  Side by side, the SVS NSD will beat BIC in every aspect.


I'm on a budget as well and SVS isn't really something I can spend money on.  That's why I went DIY.  For a little more than a BIC, you can get close to SVS NSD quality.  I took it a step further and spent almost as much as an SVS Ultra would have cost me and I have something that will beat it easily in both output and extension.



#3 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 10 2011 - 01:59 AM



Originally Posted by Robert_J 

2 lesser subs = louder, lower quality bass.  A 2nd sub adds no more extension or really lowers the distortion.

1 better sub = better extension (plays lower) and lower distortion.


BIC is a great sub for the price.  Side by side, the SVS NSD will beat BIC in every aspect.


I'm on a budget as well and SVS isn't really something I can spend money on.  That's why I went DIY.  For a little more than a BIC, you can get close to SVS NSD quality.  I took it a step further and spent almost as much as an SVS Ultra would have cost me and I have something that will beat it easily in both output and extension.


thanks. i read some of your other posts and was expecting/hoping you would reply.

i love diy.
what do i need? maybe i will just buy the speakers and build a sub.






#4 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 10 2011 - 05:20 AM

First, we start with your budget.  Give me the highest number you can give and I won't go a penny over it.  I will assume that you have all the tools or access to the tools necessary to build an enclosure.  $30 for MDF.  $20 for paint and misc supplies.


Second, constraints.  Can you live with an enclosure the size of a stand up refrigerator?  More than likely, you will end up with a sub like this - http://www.danmarx.o...n/tcsounds.html .  Here's a smaller example - http://www.danmarx.o...ion/tc3000.html .  You are trading off size and efficiency for a smaller sub.  In the smaller sub, you need a better driver, much more power and some EQ to get the same response.  Also, here are some plans for similar sized subs - http://www.creatives...lans-290307.pdf .  Do you have the skills to build one of these designs?


Another option is a cylinder sub.  Construction is easier but it is slightly more expensive to since you have to buy a piece of sonotube - http://home.comcast....3PetesTube.html .



#5 of 218 OFFLINE   John_Bilbrey

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Posted March 10 2011 - 05:50 AM

I went with DIY, and couldn't be happier.  FWIW - my 15" Dayton is in a roughly 23" cube - which is a huge box once it is completed.  Very low on WAF, but man, it's incredible.  No way could I have anything that even comes close to the performance of this had I bought something for the same money.


#6 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 10 2011 - 05:52 AM

so, refrig size is out of the question.

max size would need to be like, i dont know, 2' cube max? that 21.5" looks like a nice size


as far as budget goes. if i dont do it myself, i was going to spend 700. so for it to be worth me doing it myself, i would want to spend that much or less. preferably i would like to spend the amount of money that would perform about as well as the svs. i mean, thats the goal, right?

i dont want to spend $700 on a box that is about the same as the svs, and i dont really want to spend $700 in the first place 8-)

for the diy to be worth it to me, i would want to get equal performance for like, 350 or less. is that doable do you think? im not trying to be cheap, but saving $100 isnt worth it to me really. im not rich, but for the extra $100, i could have it all done for me.





#7 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 10 2011 - 06:20 AM

Here's John's thread - http://www.hometheat...erence-hf-build


The driver is $160 - http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=295-468

The amp - $325 - http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=300-807

2 ports - $20 - http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=268-350


$505 shipped to your door for all the parts.  Expect output and quality that is closer if not better than the current SVS Plus series.


As a comparison here is my sub setup:

Amp - http://www.parts-exp...tNumber=248-748

EQ - http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=248-656

Dual subs - http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=293-642


If you lived close to me, I'm in the process of making a set of "clone" subs with this design - http://replay.waybac...cyl-csplus3.cfm .  I picked up a pair of the used SVS 12" Plus drivers.  I should have end caps painted and cylinder carpeted this weekend.



#8 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 10 2011 - 07:19 AM

ok, so far so good. i need a plan of some sort, no? custom plan or ?




#9 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 10 2011 - 08:27 AM

Are you going with the Dayton sub and amp like John did?  Is $500 shipped to your door acceptable?  If the answer is yes to both, you can build something like John did.  You could drop down and use a 12" drive.  You go go nuts and use an 18" or 21".



#10 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 11 2011 - 02:44 AM

$500 wouldnt be a problem.
what he did would be fine.

i was under the impression though that i would need some type of layout plan after seeing that other plan. i thought i would need more than just LxWxH?

theres no tuning calculations involved?

or was this the plan that john used: http://www.danmarx.o...n/tcsounds.html (the link you gave earlier)


i want to see what the wife will be willing to live with, but she will pretty much go with whatever i sayPosted Image





#11 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 11 2011 - 06:23 AM

The plans I posted are more for ideas and construction techniques.  You need no more than LxWxH.  As long as you can use a ruler and cut a straight line, you can build a sub.


The tuning of the sub enclosure is based on the diameter, length and number of ports.  John has already calculated that with his design.  If he would be kind enough to post dimensions, that would be great.  Otherwise, I can calculate that.  I'll also convert it to a cut sheet.


If the wife is reluctant to go with such a large box, how about a pair of smaller boxes?  Dual 1.5 cubic foot boxes loaded with 12's and a pro amp to power them is another option.  Or maybe a beefier 12" and a better amp.  We've got the budget, let the wife set the constraints and we will go from there.



#12 of 218 OFFLINE   John_Bilbrey

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Posted March 11 2011 - 08:33 AM

I don't have the original dimensions, but as best as I can remember the box is a cube, internally 21.5".  Two 3" flared ports, I think 16 or 17" long (I used the kits from PE and didn't cut any length off).  The box came in right at 5ft^3 after taking out bracing, amp, and sub volume.  I think it is tuned to 18-20hz, somewhere along there.  I basically just played around with the calculator on precision sound products' website until I made it work with what I had in mind, concerning tuning, size, etc.  FWIW, I run the gain on the amp at less than 1/4 and it is ridiculous at even that level :)

I initially purchased the BASH 300w amp, which is a good bit cheaper than the PE500 but sent it back after looking at the required soldering.

Many thanks to Robert for the help with that build!



#13 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 13 2011 - 02:13 PM



Originally Posted by Robert_J 

The plans I posted are more for ideas and construction techniques.  You need no more than LxWxH.  As long as you can use a ruler and cut a straight line, you can build a sub.


The tuning of the sub enclosure is based on the diameter, length and number of ports.  John has already calculated that with his design.  If he would be kind enough to post dimensions, that would be great.  Otherwise, I can calculate that.  I'll also convert it to a cut sheet.


If the wife is reluctant to go with such a large box, how about a pair of smaller boxes?  Dual 1.5 cubic foot boxes loaded with 12's and a pro amp to power them is another option.  Or maybe a beefier 12" and a better amp.  We've got the budget, let the wife set the constraints and we will go from there.

if we went with 2 12"s, what would we be losing in big picture? the extension thing again? one 15 would be fine i think, but i like things symmetrical. one box would make me crazy. and, because of that, if i made just one and it worked out well, then i would want to make another so there was a pair. and the cost would start to accumulate. so anywho, what would 2 12's cost me?
btw, thanks for the help




#14 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 13 2011 - 03:01 PM

Bass is all about moving air.  The cone area of a pair of 12's is roughly the same size as an 18.  You can design 12's to play as low as you want them to.


The cost of a pair of 12's will be more than a 15 so let's think about a pair of sealed subs with a pro audio amp.  That will allow you to properly power them without eating into the budget.  Give me a little time to think on this and I'll post some ideas.



#15 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 14 2011 - 03:04 AM

You will need the following:

a pair of RE Audio SRx 12's (Ebay item 200583120362) = $254.38

Behringer A-500 (http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=248-749 ) = $250.99

2 sets of speaker terminals (http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=260-283 ) = $8

1 sheet of MDF = $30


Build the 1st design in these plans = http://www.creatives...lans-290307.pdf .  You can get 2 enclosures out of one sheet of MDF.


The amp will feed each sub about 300w.  I chose these subs because of their low Qts, Vas and Fs values.  They also come from a reputable manufacturer.



#16 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 14 2011 - 03:44 AM

robert, youre like the magyver of sub woofers!


i hope you dont mind all the questions(but it appears you enjoy being helpful).

i was curious to what the pros and cons of ported vs sealed would be and figured i could research it rather than just ask.

form this: http://en.wikipedia....eaker_enclosure and some other info, i gather that porting increases efficiency and distortion and decreases accuracy. so, sealed boxes are less efficient and have less distortion and more accurate.

so then its just a matter of what you want from the sub. correct?
does efficiency equate to loud basically?

if efficiency equates to loud, is that why ported boxes seem to be the norm?


if im asking too many questions, please tell me to stfu Posted Image



#17 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 14 2011 - 04:00 AM



Originally Posted by Robert_J 

You will need the following:

a pair of RE Audio SRx 12's (Ebay item 200583120362) = $254.38

Behringer A-500 (http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=248-749 ) = $250.99

2 sets of speaker terminals (http://www.parts-exp...tnumber=260-283 ) = $8

1 sheet of MDF = $30


Build the 1st design in these plans = http://www.creatives...lans-290307.pdf .  You can get 2 enclosures out of one sheet of MDF.


The amp will feed each sub about 300w.  I chose these subs because of their low Qts, Vas and Fs values.  They also come from a reputable manufacturer.


so, the back of the amp for the outputs, says 4 ohm min load for per channel, or 8 ohm min load for bridged. the SRx 12s on ebay are 2ohm speakers (as far as i can tell, the 2 in D2 means 2 ohm). simple enough to get 4 ohm (D4).http://www.sonicelec...io-SRX12D4.html i just want to understand things.





#18 of 218 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 14 2011 - 09:20 AM

D2 = dual 2 ohm.  That means each driver has a pair of 2 ohm coils.  Wired in series for a final load of 4 ohms.  Wired in parallel for a final load of 1 ohm.  It gives the user options for wiring.



#19 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 14 2011 - 09:42 AM



Originally Posted by Robert_J 

D2 = dual 2 ohm.  That means each driver has a pair of 2 ohm coils.  Wired in series for a final load of 4 ohms.  Wired in parallel for a final load of 1 ohm.  It gives the user options for wiring.


i never doubted you for a second





#20 of 218 OFFLINE   Mike Thomass

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Posted March 15 2011 - 07:55 AM

btw, im assuming its a bit more complicated to build regular speakers than it is to build a sub? or why wouldnt i just build some speakers as well?