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Design the Wii 2

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#1 of 30 OFFLINE   Greg_S_H

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Posted December 17 2010 - 06:11 PM

I'm a Nintendo fan, but two things have driven me crazy for years: their mistaken belief that great graphics and great gameplay are mutually exclusive, and their bizarre need to cling to proprietary software delivery platforms.  They haven't led their respective generation as far as graphics go since the SNES days, and they've insisted on outdated mediums since the N64.

Those are the two things that must be addressed with a Wii 2.  It has to be full HD, 1080p, and hopefully 3D-ready.  I'm not up on the technical stuff any more, but if I was in charge, I'd tell my designers, "Imagine what a PS4 or a XBox 720 will look like, and go the next step beyond that."  I don't even know what comes beyond the current gen, but the Wii 2 has to be at least able to throw Red Dead or Rage on the screen with no problem.  And to help make that possible, the Wii 2 needs to be a Blu-Ray player.  No more of this propietary crap that can't even play a freakin' DVD.


A third thing that I think is an absolute must is a packed-in dual-analog wireless gamepad, on par with the 360's or the PS3's main controllers.  Motion controls are cool, and I hope Nintendo has the next evolution of that on tap and in the box, but there has to be a way to play the traditional way.  Third party developers will be much more likely to support Nintendo's machine if they don't have to redesign the controls from the ground up.  In fact, if the graphics are on par, and they don't have to basically redesign the game to work on weak hardware and with oddball controls, then all three systems will have a level playing field as far as third party, multiplatform games are concerned.  It's important that the gamepad be packed in, because history generally shows that support for accessories you have to buy separately is sporadic at best.


So: next gen, HD graphics, industry standard Blu-Ray player, and traditional and motion controls.  Those are the main things I think the Wii 2 needs.  And, a large, upgradable hard drive.


Now, let me get to crazy things it doesn't need, but would be cool anyway:


Dual Blu-Ray players!  Oh, yeah!  You can keep a game in one player and watch movies with the other!  Or, big games like Rage don't have to be compromised because they can pull down information from both decks at the same time!


A built-in DVR/cable box!  Just picture this: you put it in cable box mode, and the screen looks like a Wii screen with all of the "channels," but they are literally TV channels!  You can see what's on 12 channels at a time and just go to whatever looks good.  Watch it or record it.  For parents who don't want these channel screens to show adult content, the live play could be turned off.  And, of course, there would be standard list and guide views.  It'd be totally customizable.  Better throw in a dedicated hard drive for recordings, and how about four HD tuners?  Posted Image


So, basically, with my Wii 2, you can get rid of your standalone Blu-Ray player, get rid of your DVR, and just have it and maybe an audio receiver hooked up to your set!  Or, we can go to realistic town, and it would be a top shelf video game player with one Blu-Ray and the standard cool stuff like HD Netflix streaming and other internet fun.



#2 of 30 OFFLINE   Edwin-S

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Posted December 17 2010 - 06:29 PM


 next gen, HD graphics, industry standard Blu-Ray player, and traditional and motion controls.  Those are the main things I think the Wii 2 needs.  And, a large, upgradable hard drive.


So, basically, what the WII 2 needs to be is.....a PS3. Posted Image


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#3 of 30 OFFLINE   Greg_S_H

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Posted December 17 2010 - 07:45 PM

Yeah, but with Mario!  Posted Image



#4 of 30 OFFLINE   mattCR

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Posted December 18 2010 - 12:33 AM



Originally Posted by Greg_S_H 

I'm a Nintendo fan, but two things have driven me crazy for years: their mistaken belief that great graphics and great gameplay are mutually exclusive, and their bizarre need to cling to proprietary software delivery platforms.  They haven't led their respective generation as far as graphics go since the SNES days, and they've insisted on outdated mediums since the N64.



Proprietary software delivery platform?  Uh, doesn't that describe both the PS3 and XBOX as well?   After all, you aren't taking games from the XBOX marketplace and playing them anywhere else... or PSN anywhere else.. or an XBOX DVD isn't a standard readable, and a Sony BD isn't standard readable.. actually, since they are only relevent to that platform, I don't have any problem with that - and it's probably smart as a means of stopping piracy.    So, if we say "Cling to proprietary Software Delivery Platforms" we'd attack all of the consoles.. it's not like any of them are using Steam.


Seriously, if I was desinging Wii2:   Yes, HD.   No to BD or DVD or anything like it... in fact, I Think the move would be: no optical drives at all.   A 320GB HDD, and each game you buy is actually a USB type stick and a code, and is has the game and verifies the code online.   Ends piracy, and cuts the item that breaks the most in all consoles.  Improved accuracy on the WiiMote, though the motionplus is close... Webcam supports.  External HDDs as an option you can buy to extend, for those that have a crapload of games.   Full backward capability with Wii.


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#5 of 30 OFFLINE   Greg_S_H

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Posted December 18 2010 - 06:58 AM

Just my fancy way of saying that Nintendo stuck to cartridges when everyone else moved to CD-ROMs that could be used for music and pictures, then went to the mini-Gamecube discs when everyone else went to DVD drives that could play movies, and now the Wii is on disc but can't even play a DVD.  Of course they should be able to lock up the content to only be used in a Wii 2, but the drive should be able to play music CDs, DVDs and Blu-Rays.  With the exception of Blu-Rays, the rest has been standard for  years for everyone except Nintendo.


I don't mind if the delivery system is something like you described, as long as the stick can hold the same amount of data as a Blu-Ray.  That doesn't seem likely at a reasonable price, but I haven't looked at USB capacity in a while.  But, I still think it needs a drive.  People want to have the option to watch their collection of movies on disc, and BR could sure use an expanded user base.



#6 of 30 OFFLINE   Morgan Jolley

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Posted December 18 2010 - 08:46 AM

The Wii was originally going to play DVDs but they removed the functionality.  Not sure why.


I don't think having a traditional controller is a good idea.  The idea behind the Wii wasn't necessarily motion controls, but to open up the audience to anyone.  The controller looks like a remote control because everyone has seen/used one, the console used last-gen tech because they wanted the price to be kept low, and they allowed it to play GameCube games so that they could arguably get more value out of people buying it.  The PS3 and 360 had different strategies (HD, being powerful, online, etc.) which basically drove the prices up of their consoles and forced them into 10 year lifecycles.  Nintendo will absolutely release their next console before MS or Sony, but I think that all the decisions they made leading up to the launch of the Wii were excellent.


A new console should do something unpredictable.  That's all.



#7 of 30 OFFLINE   Greg_S_H

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Posted December 18 2010 - 12:01 PM

See, I think they can have a Wiimote and a gamepad.  They sell one now, but hardly anyone supports it because everyone has the Wiimote and you can't depend on them buying an addon.  That's why so many games have to include the Plus, because they're scared people will just pass on the game instead of buying something else needed to play it.  I think, cost aside, it would be really smart to say to third party developers, "Anything you can make for Sony or MS, you can make for us without any changes necessary."


#8 of 30 OFFLINE   mattCR

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Posted December 18 2010 - 01:50 PM

Hold as much as a BD.. you realize, if that's the case, the PS3 is a bigtime bust.   Take one of my favorite games, Infamous.   Sure, it shipped on BD Rom.    But, now you can download the full game from PSN.   Total size: 3G... so it would have fit on a single layer DVD.. Dual layer at worst for most of these..


I think we get trapped into  what we think we are getting vs. what we are actually getting.   The fact that the PS3 can read/play BD is a nice feature, but none of the games are coming anywhere close to a single line BD (25GB) or a dual (50G).   So, it's hard for me to see why Nintendo would make that jump.   IF the little chips they put out were 4-8GB, it would be as big as 90% of all the games ever shipped for PS3, XBOX360, etc..  Besides which, the size of the game in disc space isn't much in comparison to the quality of the game.


I don't think they ever want to get into "anything you can make for MS/Sony, you can make for us".   It's the one thing Nintendo really has going for it.. there aren't a rack of exclusives PS3/XBOX, because you get developers do both.   Almost all of the major Wii releases are exclusives.   There is an advantage to that.. even people who own a PS3 or an XBOX will consider a Wii.   But if all your games are replicated on another platform, the drive to consider it as a second system or a first system is low.


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#9 of 30 OFFLINE   Morgan Jolley

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Posted December 18 2010 - 04:49 PM

Regarding the storage media:  when MS announced the 360 would use DVDs, Tomonobu Itagaki (Dead or Alive creator) was disappointed because a trailer he brought to show off DoA4 (or 5...I forget which) was too big to fit on a DVD by itself and it was just a video.  There have only been a handful of PS3 games that actually needed a bigger disc to hold enough data, but MGS4 and (I assume) Mass Effect 2 are two good examples of when it would be handy.  Regardless, I don't know if Nintendo would want to use BD-ROMs since it's a technology that Sony partially owns.


I disagree with the idea that Nintendo needs to have a traditional controller.  Some games work better with one and some work better with something different.  You don't necessarily need Call of Duty on all 3 consoles, so why not make all the games on Nintendo's system be exclusives?



#10 of 30 OFFLINE   Greg_S_H

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Posted December 18 2010 - 06:07 PM

I know Rage was reportedly cut down on all platforms to fit on the 360, when the PS3 could have handled it.


The controller thing is a biggie with me, so be glad I'm not designing the Wii 2.  Posted Image  I've watched the Wii be considered a joke based on weak "ports" and lack of great games like Red Dead, and it only makes sense for them to get on a level playing field.  Nintendo always makes great exclusives, so they could appeal to Nintendo fans with those and everyone else with any game by id, R*, etc.



#11 of 30 OFFLINE   Morgan Jolley

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Posted December 19 2010 - 05:32 AM

I really don't care what id does with Rage.  I don't think they're very good game designers, but excellent engine designers and graphical artists.  Whether the next Nintendo console can handle it or not is a terrible benchmark for success.  Up until this generation of consoles, I felt similarly disinterested with Rockstar because their games had great ideas but were horribly designed with bad graphics, spotty controls, and throwaway stories.


I think that using a traditional controller actually hampers game design.  Technically, there's no reason why any game company couldn't port a PS3/360 game to the Wii and use the classic controller.  Examples of this: Call of Duty: Black Ops was fully ported to the Wii, even with the multiplayer modes, and GoldenEye 007 had a classic controller pro packed in and is better when played with it instead of the remote.  The Wii is going after a different market than the PS3 and 360, but that's why the PS3 and 360 just added motion controls (to go after the Wii's market).  Personally, I'd rather the gaming market be pushed towards creative new game experiences than finding a way to easily port the same game to multiple platforms.


The Wii doesn't have the same games as the PS3 and 360, but I don't think it has anything to do with the controller.  Keep in mind that Nintendo has sold more Wii consoles worldwide than either the PS3 or the 360, so any issues you may have with it obviously didn't matter to the rest of the world.



#12 of 30 OFFLINE   mattCR

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Posted December 20 2010 - 07:11 AM

To me, the best games on any of the platforms so far have been:


Castle Crashers -  The XBOX team game that gets kids going.. great stuff


Super Mario World / Super Mario World 2 - some of the best game play on any system


PixelJunk Monsters - PS3 -  Try it, just for an hour.   And see if you aren't hooked... this is an infernal puzzle game that can keep you up in your sleep.


Fat Princess - PS3 - Again, another team, great fun game..


Infamous - PS3 -  Fantastic Storyline


Uncharted 2 - PS3 - Fantastic Storyline


LostWinds - WiiWare.. both in this series are fantastic fun.


DeathSpank - XBOX & PS3 - lots of fun..


You see what attracts me (and my kids) isn't a genre or a type, but put out a good product, and I'll buy.   Right now, all platforms have something to offer.  I admit, it has been a long time since I bought an XBOX exclusive title, but I've bought several PS3, with more planned..and Wii gets money for games as well.   :)


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#13 of 30 OFFLINE   Edwin-S

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Posted December 20 2010 - 07:56 AM



Originally Posted by Greg_S_H 

Yeah, but with Mario!  Posted Image



Posted Image




Originally Posted by mattCR 

Quote:Seriously, if I was desinging Wii2:   Yes, HD.   No to BD or DVD or anything like it... in fact, I Think the move would be: no optical drives at all.   A 320GB HDD, and each game you buy is actually a USB type stick and a code, and is has the game and verifies the code online.   Ends piracy, and cuts the item that breaks the most in all consoles.  Improved accuracy on the WiiMote, though the motionplus is close... Webcam supports.  External HDDs as an option you can buy to extend, for those that have a crapload of games.   Full backward capability with Wii.


I don't like the idea of online verification in order to play a game. It pisses me off that a gaming company is dictating that I have an online connection in order to play a game that I have purchased. UbiSoft had a WW2 submarine warfare game out for PCs. I would have liked to pick it up, but it was no sale as soon as I saw the requirement for an internet connection to play the game. If UbiSoft pays for my internet connection then they can dictate whether I need one in order to play one of their games. The same would apply to Nintendo if they ever adopted online verification.


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#14 of 30 OFFLINE   Aaron Silverman

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Posted December 20 2010 - 08:10 AM

They tried that with Assassin's Creed 2, no?  I don't follow the PC gaming world much, but I know people were very upset with that game.  (IIRC Ubi had to patch it because in the game as shipped, if you lost your internet connection while playing, you lost all your progress!)


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#15 of 30 OFFLINE   Morgan Jolley

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Posted December 20 2010 - 10:44 AM

mattCR - Umm...you realize Castle Crashers is on PSN and XBLA right?  Regarding HDDs, I think moving to download-only or any other format would be bad.  The speed to read data off of a USB stick or an external HDD (heck, even some internal HDDs) is too slow compared to a well-programmed game on a BD-ROM.  Requiring games to be online all the time wouldn't work, especially for a console that appeals the most to the less-techy crowd.  Nintendo has tried to fight piracy by releasing games that are worth actually buying and updating the Wii firmware constantly to block out any programs that allow gamers to play pirated copies of games.  It's not the most effective, but when enough money is flying around then it doesn't matter.  The next generation of consoles will probably still rely on retail media (read: discs) for games as well as having downloadable copies.  The PS3 and 360 do this, but the PSP is the only platform that has day-and-date releases of new games in stores and online.  The problem becomes this: how do you make a HD-quality game that can be downloaded to a console in a reasonable amount of time?  The PS3 and 360 have full games for download and they're huge file sizes, but they're only going to get bigger (and would be, if MS didn't use DVDs for the console).  I think that when we lose physical media, we're more likely to have the PlayStation or Xbox as a service that provides games and entertainment (something like what OnLive is positioning itself to be).


Aaron - Ubisoft created a system where PC versions of their games require you to be online to play them at all.  This is their approach to fixing the PC gaming piracy issue that hasn't really popped up for the PS3, is sort of a problem for the 360, but rampant on the Wii.  People very quickly found a way around the Ubisoft DRM issue within a couple months.




#16 of 30 OFFLINE   mattCR

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Posted December 20 2010 - 11:23 AM

Yes, I did know Castle Crashers is XBL and PSN.. though its very new to PSN and has been on XBL for some time.. still one of the best games ever out for either platform.  PixelJunk Monsters is PSN, Lost Winds is WiiWare.... Fat Princess is PSN


All depends on what you are looking for. Who says it stays on a stick? I'm figuring you get the stick and it downloads into the internal HDD, and then you never worry about the stick again..


Sony tried to provide that game-on-the-go thing with PSHome, which so far seems to be a monumental bust... does anyone use it unless you're completely board and want to see how ridiculous it is?


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#17 of 30 OFFLINE   Morgan Jolley

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Posted December 20 2010 - 03:31 PM

PlayStation Home isn't game-on-the-go.  It's a surprisingly well done virtual world, but it ultimately serves no real purpose and feels kind of lifeless, even when it's full of people.  I think that, ironically, Kinect would improve on something like that, even though you could probably get the same benefits from just a PSEye.


Were you referring to the PSPgo?  The only real problem with the go was the price and that it was a PSP instead of a PSP2 or something similar.  The design is pretty slick and the screen is nice, but it was too expensive (launched at $250, still around $150) and required you to download games to play them.  This was a problem if you already had games and made it impossible to buy used games.  The next PSP will supposedly use memory cards (think how the DS and every other handheld works) and will also allow downloads.


I think that being forced to install a game on a HDD from a stick or something similar, like you suggested, wouldn't work.  People would be annoyed with having to buy something they never need again (the stick) or wouldn't want to have to wait to install the game before they can use it.  If you required the disc to play the game, then you better design something that isn't lost easy (impossible for little kiss).  It also would be way too easy for people to pirate, unless they came up with some sort of proprietary tech.  Even then, it would probably make more sense to just make a disc to buy in stores.  Making a small stick like that would probably not reduce costs much, since very little of a current AAA title's retail cost covers stamping the disc and making the case.


If you want to give something to people that they can temporarily own to buy a game that stays on their HDD, they already allow you to buy cards at GameStop that give you download codes for games on PSN and XBLA.  I think to do anything different than what is currently available (the cards with download codes, physical discs that you buy, or buying games online) would be annoying to consumers and not cost efficient.


Like I said before, the next evolution of the industry is going to be something like OnLive.  If network speeds grow high enough, then people will be able to stream games with little to no lag.  If you could buy a little $100 box that allowed you to play games with cutting edge graphics (even keeping up to or exceeding what is considered cutting edge at any given time), then why buy a $300+ console?



#18 of 30 OFFLINE   Aaron Silverman

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Posted December 21 2010 - 06:41 AM

Wow, I had no idea that the Wii had a major problem with piracy (I have a Wii, but I don't really follow that sort of news).  Is it bigger than their shovelware problem? :D


I've messed around with PS Home a few times.  It's kind of awkward as a social networking platform, but it's fun to walk around the virtual world and check out videos and minigames.  I know they use it to host online tournaments, but I'm not much for online multiplayer gaming so I don't pay much attention to that.


I expect it will be a long time before very many people have an online connection fast and reliable enough to stream cutting-edge games.


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#19 of 30 OFFLINE   Morgan Jolley

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Posted December 21 2010 - 09:58 AM

PS Home will work better in an environment where most games are on the HDD for the PS3.  You can launch a multiplayer game from Home with someone you meet there, but it only seems worth it if you can launch right to a MP match without putting the disc in.


The Wii was hacked pretty quickly/easily and games routinely show up online the day they are released, if not earlier from international releases.  I don't pirate (if it's not good enough to buy, even used, then it's not good enough to play, even pirated) but I know someone who does and he has just about anything he could find.



#20 of 30 OFFLINE   Sam Posten

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Posted December 21 2010 - 11:36 AM

All I can add to this conversation is that if they don't change to downloadables being tied to a personal account instead of a machine the system is dead to me.

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