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What is your Experience with "judder" from various source material?


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#1 of 9 OFFLINE   frascati

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Posted December 17 2010 - 05:15 AM

I was watching "The Bountyhunter" last night. It's about the 10th movie I'd watched via streaming netflix through the samsung, so what I began to percieve made me wonder if I was merely getting more discriminating in my observations or if there was something inherent to this particular movie. I started noticing that body movements, automobiles moving, etc, were exhibiting an irritating stop motion. I recognized it as low frame rate causing a strobing effect to movement and just googled "netflix frame rates per second" and found plenty to confirm my worries right on the first of many pages. http://netflixcommun......mment:959231 Is there a method of determining FPS when streaming via the blu ray player? I just called netflix and they have logs which indicate that last night while I was watching "The Bountyhunter" my speed was as high as 21mb and never lower than 9mb. Netflix tech asst assured me that frame rate was very unlikely to be impaired at that speed. My ISP is surely going to tell me the same thing. There is no doubt that I was witnessing it with my own eyes. What's the next step?

#2 of 9 OFFLINE   Craig Beam

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Posted December 23 2010 - 01:40 PM

I started watching "Cronos" the other night and got the same stuttering motion, and it was constant.  I haven't gone back to try again.



#3 of 9 OFFLINE   Keith_R

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Posted December 25 2010 - 01:04 PM

I viewed "Moon" via streaming the other night and saw this occur as well, it was noticeable but not constant. I was viewing on a 46 inch LCD. I've viewed streamed films on a 32 inch LCD before but don't remember this happening.


-Keith-       


#4 of 9 OFFLINE   Craig Beam

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Posted December 26 2010 - 04:39 PM

The thing is, lots of other Netflix content plays fine.  Interestingly, my example above (Cronos) also exhibits the strange stuttering motion if I watch it on my PC, so I know it's not just my Samsung player.  Maybe some bad encodes floating around on Netflix...?



#5 of 9 OFFLINE   JDR22

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Posted December 27 2010 - 08:57 AM



Originally Posted by Craig Beam 

The thing is, lots of other Netflix content plays fine.  Interestingly, my example above (Cronos) also exhibits the strange stuttering motion if I watch it on my PC, so I know it's not just my Samsung player.  Maybe some bad encodes floating around on Netflix...?


I experienced the same problem with "Cronos", both on my Samsung BD-C6500 and on my Wii.  I also noticed it during certain shots of "The X-Files: Season 1".  I think the problem is on Netflix's end, and I hope they fix it soon.  I was really looking forward to "Cronos", but it's unwatchable in it's current state.


#6 of 9 OFFLINE   frascati

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Posted December 29 2010 - 05:35 AM

This had probably been posted widely, but in case you have not read it, and the comments following it, it's a very worthwhile read. http://www.projector.../judder_24p.htm And "Cronos" ? Nicely ironic in this thread. :P I'll be sure to avoid it now that I'm sensitized to this problem. I'm less inclined to blame my components finally, despite that my Samsung was dinged in a couple of reviews for displaying more judder than some others tested. But after seeing your comments here, and those at other forums I've joined, it looks like it's an issue that needs to be accomodated in varying degrees depending on the source material. Some have even suggested that 'judder' in not precisely the correct term for it. "jitter" "strobe effect" etc. In any case, it appears that it's a widely recognized shortcoming of the 24fps standard in filming. It's only more noticeable now that we have such high definition playback devices. I was worried that HD sports might be a problem then with this set but to my relief it appears not to be the case. I watched an HD football game yesterday and it was absolutely flawless. Can anyone tell me if this is because sports and most televison shows are digital video to begin with and immune from frame rate problems? After the game I watched "Space Cowboys", in regular def, from netflix. It too was near perfect. I then watched "The Town" from VuDu, in HD, which should have been that much better, and there was pretty irritating judder in the background of many panning shots. Go figure. I went back to netflix and tried "The Iron Giant" animated feature and it was literally unwatchable (now that I'm looking for this stuff). Panning in the animation looked like there was a strobe light in the room. Realllllllly irritating. There is a firmware update for my television, which according to samsung is meant to correct my model's shortcoming here, so I'll have to see. But for most part I believe 98 percent of what I'm seeing is source related and having little to do with my components or even my ISP. You know, I thought I'd learned my lesson with high end audio years ago to stop sweating the details so much when I finally realized that I was no longer just enjoying the music like I'd used to. I'll have to relearn this again now that high end video has finally come into our living rooms.

#7 of 9 OFFLINE   BenCam91

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Posted December 29 2010 - 02:32 PM

I've never had this problem with Netflix streaming, though I've only ever seen one HD source there: "Wild China," which is definitely BD.  It looked way better than the (doubtless standard-def) "Man Vs. Wild" stuff they also have.


Where I do have judder/stutter problems is watching movies with any kind of text which regularly pops up on the screen, or even one documentary which doesn't: "Journey to the Edge of the Universe," a Nat Geo BD, in my external USB player/recorder drive, which has also ceased being able to record anything from within Nero of late.  Sometimes if I'm running enhanced content or a docu-disc, it'll even stop working, forcing me to restart my computer!


Nary a problem from Netflix, though, and I've got full high-speed cable internet...



#8 of 9 OFFLINE   JDR22

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Posted December 30 2010 - 06:11 AM

I don't feel like this is a frame rate issue at all.  The problem is clearly in the Netflix source, and it happens on every device.  In fact, I just tried to stream "Cronos" to my work PC (which has a high-speed connection) and the "judder" is still there.  I've watched many films that were shot in 24fps through Netflix that look just fine.

I guess we all just need to report it to Netflix with the "Report Problem" button on their website, and hope they fix the issue.  


#9 of 9 OFFLINE   frascati

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Posted January 03 2011 - 06:34 AM

I watched two episodes of 'wild china' last night and I'd describe panning judder relative to other netflix I've watched as mild to bad. Definetly there and irritating. Especially noticeable in this documentary because the cinemetography is state of the art and there are plenty of panned vistas. HIGHLY recommended to watch by the way. There may be that there is a physiological element to this that is just not perceptible to some eyes. Also may be that certain television sets are more prone to it. How would it be described when reporting the problem? Can't it be a netflix problem and still a framerate issue originating at their end? The 'static' (if that term is appropriate) image quality on the netflix films is flawless. But that panning judder is mild to horrendous depending on the film/documentary. Because I harbor a mild conspiratorial bent, my first reaction is that netflix is throttling somehow in a way that holds a line between least obtrusive/degraded to the largest number of (generally uncritical) customers, and least costly for them to deliver overall. If that's the case then it would take a whole lot of complaint from the likes of us before they would deign to 'fix' it. VuDu is available via my bluray player, but at 4.99 per film, compared to 8.99/mo for unlimited films, I'd accept a whole lot of glitches from netflix before I'd drop the plan. Of course, they know that. Then again, as I mentioned above, I did watch "The Town" via VuDu as their free sample offer. I watched it in HD and observed noticeable panning judder. Maybe I'm just really sensitive to this. But there is ZERO judder in HD programmed television shows and action/panning in HD football games is flawless. This has to have something to do with 24fps issues in film. Part of it is my set's ability to process that digitally, and some of it has to do with vestiges of panning judder inherent in any filmed source as explained in the following.... http://www.projector.../judder_24p.htm Why it is so markedly worse on some portion of netlix offerings is perhaps the real issue here that needs to be looked into.