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Is Manufacture on Demand the future of TV on DVD?


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#41 of 87 OFFLINE   Nailwraps

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Posted October 12 2010 - 07:28 AM

Possibly. But I like my TV shows on DVD restored, remastered, uncut, and with extras. I'm sure companies restores transfers for TV shows for MOD.



#42 of 87 ONLINE   MatthewA

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Posted October 12 2010 - 09:17 AM



Originally Posted by Nailwraps 

Possibly. But I like my TV shows on DVD restored, remastered, uncut, and with extras. I'm sure companies restores transfers for TV shows for MOD.



Some companies didn't even bother to do that for in-store releases!


Enough is enough, Disney. No more evasions or excuses. We DEMAND the release Song of the South on Blu-ray along with the uncut version of Bedknobs and Broomsticks on Blu-ray. I will not support anything your company produces until then.


#43 of 87 OFFLINE   DeWilson

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Posted October 12 2010 - 10:25 AM



Originally Posted by Nailwraps 

Possibly. But I like my TV shows on DVD restored, remastered, uncut, and with extras. I'm sure companies restores transfers for TV shows for MOD.


NO company has done any restored transfers for what little TV shows are on MOD. They are taking the best available off the shelf masters they have - MGM's "Highway Patrol","Flipper",and "Johnny Sokko" were done some time ago - just the best clean broadcast masters they have - no work to them,same with the handful of TV movies and animation shows at The Warners Archive.



Originally Posted by MatthewA 
  Some companies didn't even bother to do that for in-store releases!


Let's not forget the ones that not only took off the shelf broadcast prints,but used edited ones!




#44 of 87 OFFLINE   BobO'Link

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Posted October 12 2010 - 10:43 AM

I am currently in the anti-MOD camp for most of the reasons mentioned.  The primary reason is cost.  I feel these titles are grossly overpriced.  Considering the lack of "re-mastering", need for storage facilities, etc. these should go for *at most* 1/2 the cost of the *same* release on pressed disks.  Even at that low a price point the studios should still make a respectable profit.  Just the fact that you can pick up a Warner MOD at DD for 20% *less* than the same disk at the Warner Store and also get "free" shipping speaks volumes to me!  DD would not be selling these if they did not make a profit.  It's the same for many MOD titles at amazon.  While the amazon prices are not as good as those at DD the principle is the same.  They'd not be offering these titles if there were not a profit to be made.


No matter what the "expert sites" say about the longevity of burned media there's still no consensus.  Some say they'll last up to 100 years while another will tell you 5-10 *if* stored properly. How many of you have had your AC go out on the hottest week of the year causing your precious collections to undergo 90 deg plus temps while waiting days for a repair man?  How long does that CD-R last if used regularly in your car?  Generally, I'm comfortable with burned media... to a degree.  I've had *many* failed disks over the years even when stored properly (primarily computer data disks but the principle is exactly the same).  I'm just not ready to pay super-inflated prices for product on such media.


That said... if the manufacturers are willing to provide a *lifetime* "no questions asked" warranty, barring obvious user created issues such as scratches, gouges, and breaks, for the original purchaser I *might* be willing to accept inflated prices.  I'd just look at it as insurance.



#45 of 87 OFFLINE   Jeff Willis

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Posted October 12 2010 - 11:43 AM

I'm probably in the middle group with the MOD progams.  I have bought a few MOD's, the "Barker" Tarzan set, with a discounted coupon and one Universal movie that's been on my list for years.  However, that's the limit of my buys with the pricepoints for the MOD's.


I also think that the prices are too high for DVD-R's.  I'd buy a few more if the prices were lower but there's not been that much released there that's interested me so far.


About the age-old debate about DVD-R lifetimes, I tend to agree that there's not enough long-term data available to determine life-spans.  It would seem to me that there are too many variables as mentioned earlier; blank media quality, storage effects, also perhaps the brand of burner that's used for the dics.


I will read Matt's links about the tech info, sounds interesting.  Thanks for providing the links.


As Gary mentioned earlier, the issue of playback compatibility is one of the main issues that concern me with these DVD-R's.  Having not read a lot of tech info on the 'net about it, it's puzzling to me that given the age of the Std DVD format, why do we have certain DVD-R's that will play on Brand "A" player but won't play on Brand "B" ?  Is that solely due to the quality of the disc?  Or are there suttle differences between Std DVD players?  I'd have thought that these players all have essentially the same internal laser opticical reading hardware in them.


I'm guessing that the answer to this lies in the way the DVD-R's were burned, on what type of burner, and the quality of the media.

Since I've never seen a pressed DVD have player-compatibility issues, that would seem to eliminate Std players as the issue.


Bottom line to me about the MOD programs is that if I'm waiting for a certain movie that has been on my list for years, I'll buy that movie on MOD but with a coupon or a sale price.  I consider myself fortunate that my movie waiting list is very short.


As for TV/DVD MOD sets, they are beyond the price range that I'm willing to pay.  Maybe we'll see an eventual downward price trend for TV/DVD MOD sets.


Fortunately, the holidays are approaching and that means the "sleigh" is getting a tune-up for a workout Posted Image   That's where I'll get 1 or 2 TV/DVD MOD sets.



ml1fyo.jpg  "Checkmate King Two, 'Out'" "Combat! A Selmur Production"

 

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#46 of 87 OFFLINE   Nebiroth

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Posted October 12 2010 - 08:53 PM

Whilst I have doubts about the media used, my main objection to this program is the price structure.


The customer is being asked to pay a lot more, in return for receiving a lot less.


There can be absolutely no doubt that these products are "value brand" in content, but "premium brand" in price.


On top of that, as someone outside of the USA, they're a pain to get hold of. Now, that is nothing new with studio exclusive titles, since none of them ship anything direct outside of non-domestic addresses, but it does irk that the WA is exclusive and that they neve rmanaged to sort out international shipping.


Thankfuly, the stuff does seem to eventually turn up on the likes of DD and Amazon. It's still cripplingly expensive - the price point means that they have to be bought one at a time, or attract customs fees, so you end up paying $6-8 shipping for one disc.


Luckily, there's not been anything in the WA so far that's been a "must have"



#47 of 87 OFFLINE   Gary OS

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Posted October 13 2010 - 01:18 AM



Originally Posted by Nebiroth 

Whilst I have doubts about the media used, my main objection to this program is the price structure.


The customer is being asked to pay a lot more, in return for receiving a lot less.


There can be absolutely no doubt that these products are "value brand" in content, but "premium brand" in price.



Richard, I don't think you'll get an argument from anyone here about that - regardless of whether they are pro-MOD or anti-MOD.  It's my biggest gripe as well.  In fact it's my biggest gripe by a long shot.


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#48 of 87 OFFLINE   westumulka

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Posted October 13 2010 - 04:45 AM



Originally Posted by Nebiroth 

The customer is being asked to pay a lot more, in return for receiving a lot less.


There can be absolutely no doubt that these products are "value brand" in content, but "premium brand" in price.


On top of that, as someone outside of the USA, they're a pain to get hold of. Now, that is nothing new with studio exclusive titles, since none of them ship anything direct outside of non-domestic addresses, but it does irk that the WA is exclusive and that they neve rmanaged to sort out international shipping.


Thankfuly, the stuff does seem to eventually turn up on the likes of DD and Amazon. It's still cripplingly expensive - the price point means that they have to be bought one at a time, or attract customs fees, so you end up paying $6-8 shipping for one disc.


Luckily, there's not been anything in the WA so far that's been a "must have"



Whilst I agree that the price point for the movies is too high - the prices for tv shows is a little better (almost at the same suggested retail price point as pressed discs).

I am hoping that the reason that WB is not making these titles available overseas (by direct means) is that they're going to either licence them to other companies for other regions, or that they will release them (on pressed discs) in those regions. As the Archives program has been going for over a year (and very successfully it looks), it could also mean that they might produce their own regional archives discs!



#49 of 87 OFFLINE   Ethan Riley

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Posted October 13 2010 - 07:59 AM



Originally Posted by Neil Brock 




      That argument is as valid as the one people used to use years ago about VHS tapes fading away. All completely baseless and unfounded falsehoods.


I have a few vhs tapes that I recorded off the airwaves back in 1983. They still work!


Some of you are not being too fair here--some of you seem to believe that the studios have found a "cheap" means of producing dvds (MOD) and that they're fooling the fans into paying top dollar for inferior product. The truth is, this is their new alternative in a world that no longer seems to favor over-the-counter dvd releases. Face it--Circuit City is gone. Blockbuster Video is going away. Other big retailers are cutting back on their in-stock dvd supplies. That's because people aren't buying as much. And the studios come in and find an alternative for getting classic tv-on-dvd directly to the fans--who are still complaining. I don't get it.


First of all--you have to understand that there's more than one kind of MOD...some are pressed and some are burnt. Lobby to the studios to go with pressed. That'll solve most of your problems with playback compatibility and longevity right there. Second, support those pressed releases. If there's a show you're dying to have--go out and order it! That's pretty much the only way you're ever going to get these shows. To just sit there and whine and turn up your nose at the future of manufacturing is to shoot yourselves in the foot. And I think we've already shot ourselves in the foot many times in the past, by not buying Volume One's of certain shows because we weren't sure there'd ever be a Volume Two. If you don't buy Vol. One, there won't be a Vol. Two. And if you don't buy the MODs, there won't be any more of those, either. This is it, guys. This is our last means of getting our old shows as physical media. It's either this, or just learn to embrace Hulu, I guess.


 

 


#50 of 87 OFFLINE   Corey3rd

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Posted October 13 2010 - 08:34 AM

for those moaning about the prices, Warner Archive has a Halloween sale that includes free shipping if order is over $60.


$20.96 for Funky Phantom, Goober and the Ghost Chasers, Addams Family.


come see the reviews at
http://thedvdlounge.com/

and the Seinfeld Tour Bus

#51 of 87 OFFLINE   Gary OS

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Posted October 13 2010 - 08:37 AM

    Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethan Riley 

Some of you are not being too fair here--some of you seem to believe that the studios have found a "cheap" means of producing dvds (MOD) and that they're fooling the fans into paying top dollar for inferior product. The truth is, this is their new alternative in a world that no longer seems to favor over-the-counter dvd releases. Face it--Circuit City is gone. Blockbuster Video is going away. Other big retailers are cutting back on their in-stock dvd supplies. That's because people aren't buying as much. And the studios come in and find an alternative for getting classic tv-on-dvd directly to the fans--who are still complaining. I don't get it.



You're point about the retailers not carrying dvds anymore has nothing to do with the price point the studios have decided to use in their MOD programs.  Yes, we undoubtedly do need to accept that the landscape has changed and it very much appears MOD DVD-Rs are going to be the new media used for older material.  But that doesn't explain the higher price point.


Gary "I don't mind alternatives like the Shout Select program that do use pressed DVDs - I'll give them my business" O.


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#52 of 87 OFFLINE   smithb

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Posted October 13 2010 - 08:56 AM

By quoting Neil, are you supporting the idea that our concerns over the longevity of DVD-R's is completely baseless?


My personal take is that the MOD program costs studios more in the long run to support because they are not mass producing disks but taking a more manual approach bringing a higher labor cost with a preset set profit margin. An obviously less risky venture on their part.  Now typically when you have a preset profit margin, the percentage does not have to be as high as the more risky pressed approach where some may lose money in the long run. I have no idea what their actual costs are so I can't say much about the MOD pricing being fair. While I have no direct knowledge, this is my best guess. Now this does not take into consideration remastering efforts since these up-front costs have other benefits beyond DVD distribution. So chances are the one's they are not remastering were never in the plans to remaster anyway.


I would say that most of the complaints here are directed at MOD program that support DVD-R's. But it might be useful to differentiate which do and which do not. Personally, I rarely buy DVD's in a store anyway, so I'm not sure that being less available there is an issue. I would say that the better on-line pricing and selection has more to do with that.


However, I will agree with you that we need to continue to strongly support TV on DVD if we want to see it continue. Especially, for old TV shows. While I have not purchased any MOD TV sets I have purchased 70+ seasons of pressed sets this years (with more to come), and 100+ last year. I am supporting Timeless and Shout and big studio pressed disks. As long as I have plenty to interest me with pressed releases that will be my focus. If that dries up then I will have to consider MOD sets with no other choice (unless download and burn becomes available).



#53 of 87 OFFLINE   ChuckWL

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Posted October 13 2010 - 01:15 PM



Originally Posted by smithb 

By quoting Neil, are you supporting the idea that our concerns over the longevity of DVD-R's is completely baseless?


My personal take is that the MOD program costs studios more in the long run to support because they are not mass producing disks but taking a more manual approach bringing a higher labor cost with a preset set profit margin. An obviously less risky venture on their part.  Now typically when you have a preset profit margin, the percentage does not have to be as high as the more risky pressed approach where some may lose money in the long run. I have no idea what their actual costs are so I can't say much about the MOD pricing being fair. While I have no direct knowledge, this is my best guess. Now this does not take into consideration remastering efforts since these up-front costs have other benefits beyond DVD distribution. So chances are the one's they are not remastering were never in the plans to remaster anyway.


I would say that most of the complaints here are directed at MOD program that support DVD-R's. But it might be useful to differentiate which do and which do not. Personally, I rarely buy DVD's in a store anyway, so I'm not sure that being less available there is an issue. I would say that the better on-line pricing and selection has more to do with that.


However, I will agree with you that we need to continue to strongly support TV on DVD if we want to see it continue. Especially, for old TV shows. While I have not purchased any MOD TV sets I have purchased 70+ seasons of pressed sets this years (with more to come), and 100+ last year. I am supporting Timeless and Shout and big studio pressed disks. As long as I have plenty to interest me with pressed releases that will be my focus. If that dries up then I will have to consider MOD sets with no other choice (unless download and burn becomes available).


One of the big costs with making regular discs is storage.  From what I have gathered many of the studios were paying huge monthly fees for warehouse storage of unwanted and unsold discs. MOD makes that a mute point!



#54 of 87 OFFLINE   smithb

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Posted October 13 2010 - 04:41 PM


Originally Posted by ChuckWL 
One of the big costs with making regular discs is storage.  From what I have gathered many of the studios were paying huge monthly fees for warehouse storage of unwanted and unsold discs. MOD makes that a mute point!


Good point...I had not considered that angle.



#55 of 87 OFFLINE   derosa

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Posted October 14 2010 - 03:14 AM

Questions about the long term storage of DVD-r discs aside, I've been wondering if the switch to MOD

has more to do with the selling patterns of certain titles, and the lack of retailer support for titles that aren't

mega-sellers.  

Isn't it true that the "hit" shows are selling a huge % of their units in the first couple of weeks after release?
If these older shows being released on MOD by contrast have a steady sales pattern, in small volume,

then I could see how it makes sense to made the discs to order, instead of running a huge batch once

and have the inventory to store in a warehouse.    I'd rather shows be available MOD than not at all.

Retail is bailing on DVD titles in genreral, and ordering on-line is so easy in most cases.  I also live in

Canada, and can't order directly from WB.com, but have family and friends in the USA, and there is

always going to be a way to buy something if you really want it.


I hope the quality of the discs is going to be ok, so we can set that issue aside.  I suppose it would be

possible to back up the data on the DVD-r discs, if one were really concerned about it over time.



#56 of 87 OFFLINE   Nebiroth

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Posted October 14 2010 - 04:50 AM

I keep coming back to the same thought with this.


We keep on hearing how the MOD programs are reducing the production costs associated with traditional DVD releases, for example, they don't have to go to a third party manufacturer to make the things, they don;t have minimum-size orders, no storage costs, no distribution costs, etc etc.


But that returns us to the elephant in the room - in that case, why are they so damn expensive?


It sure isn't because the studios are being lavish with restoration or extra features. Quite the reverse.


The sale of product in high-street stores has little to do with this. Products are priced based on how much they cost to make and, more importantly, how much people are willing to pay for them. Evidently, the studios took the view that the sort of customer these titles interest would be willing to pay a lot for them coupled with their very limited availability and decided that they could charge a lot for them.


I refute what the poster said above: the studios *have* found a way to produce inferior product cheaply and get a high price for them.


I'd even go so far as to say that a few discs probably sell because of their exclusivity and high price tag!




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Posted October 14 2010 - 05:26 AM



Originally Posted by Nebiroth 

I keep coming back to the same thought with this.


We keep on hearing how the MOD programs are reducing the production costs associated with traditional DVD releases, for example, they don't have to go to a third party manufacturer to make the things, they don;t have minimum-size orders, no storage costs, no distribution costs, etc etc.


But that returns us to the elephant in the room - in that case, why are they so damn expensive?


It sure isn't because the studios are being lavish with restoration or extra features. Quite the reverse.


The sale of product in high-street stores has little to do with this. Products are priced based on how much they cost to make and, more importantly, how much people are willing to pay for them. Evidently, the studios took the view that the sort of customer these titles interest would be willing to pay a lot for them coupled with their very limited availability and decided that they could charge a lot for them.


I refute what the poster said above: the studios *have* found a way to produce inferior product cheaply and get a high price for them.


I'd even go so far as to say that a few discs probably sell because of their exclusivity and high price tag!



Very well put, Richard.  I agree with you.  I find myself paying these inflated prices too, at times, because it's the only place to get a rare movie I want.  My biggest gripes is the studios not using dual-layer blanks.  Long films really start to suffer with one layer after a while.  I picked up Warner's "Ice Palace", which crammed 140+ minutes on a single layer.  You can see it in the softness of the image and compression artifacts.  How much more would it cost them to use a dual-layer disc when they're charging $20 a shot?  Quality of the image varies a lot too on these titles.  Some are really excellent, others not.  The little sample thay have on their sites doesn't tell you much as far as how it will look on a regular television.



#58 of 87 OFFLINE   ChuckWL

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Posted October 14 2010 - 05:30 AM

Thought I remember reading recently that Warner was going to start using Dual Layer Discs?

#59 of 87 OFFLINE   westumulka

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Posted October 14 2010 - 05:56 AM



Originally Posted by Nebiroth 


The sale of product in high-street stores has little to do with this. Products are priced based on how much they cost to make and, more importantly, how much people are willing to pay for them. Evidently, the studios took the view that the sort of customer these titles interest would be willing to pay a lot for them coupled with their very limited availability and decided that they could charge a lot for them.




Actually, I think the sale of product in high-street stores has had a major impact on the studios. With two of the major retailers cutting way back on the titles they sell (not to mention others like Circuit City having already gone bust), the main outlet for their sales now are the online retailers. Where you once might have had a very large order from WalMart or Best Buy for their stores that seems to have (almost) gone. I am sure that the loss of those sales has had an impact. The retail market has gone pretty cold. I know that the marketplace is different in other countries,  but here in the USA dvd sales are slipping. Just a few stories about this are:

https://www.trefis.c...?article=17323#


http://screenrant.co...ck-pauly-81532/


http://online.wsj.co...7132563199.html


I do agree that the prices being charged for movies available on the MOD program are too high.



#60 of 87 OFFLINE   shoeshineboy

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Posted October 14 2010 - 06:05 AM

If they were offfering more for the larger price, there'd be some justification. However, a certain portion of the market -- as it is with any product -- will pay more just for the basics. By targeting that demographic the companies accept that they will sell less -- and weighing that a nice chunk of their previous customers were those who held off until the product was extremely marked down and sold cheap, there's decent rationale for their thinking.

All i know is that in the past year i've spent more than 80% of my dvd money on tv shows; in recent years it was closer to 40-50%.

I'm not interested in MOD and altho one excuse (i live in Canada) suggests i'm not part of their target audience, i can estimate that of the films rolled out via MOD i would have probably bought 25-40, which at $20 a pop (or more for restored, pressed dvds) is a nice chunk of change.

Those who see MOD and its current configuration as a blessing can have it. There are smaller companies that continue to release pressed dvds; tcm appears to have some selective interest, of which i have supported.

There's still a lot of interest and money available for the rights holders if they treat their customers well. I'm waiting to see that happen.