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Is Manufacture on Demand the future of TV on DVD?


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#21 of 87 OFFLINE   shoeshineboy

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Posted October 10 2010 - 03:38 PM



Originally Posted by Neil Brock 





     Great post and I couldn't have said it better myself. Give me series complete with uncut episodes. I'm not concerned with the "condiments", like extras or what kind of box the set comes in or other such silly nonsense. Nor do I care if they are digitally remastered from the 35mm negs. I've got thousands of shows that are either from 16mm or recorded from off-air. As for the lifespan of the discs, I'm sure it will be longer than my remaining lifespan so I don't really care if they go bad in 50 years because I'll be long gone by then.



O-kay, except in your second sentence you've set a standard that nearly all mod (and many real dvd releases, sadly said) don't respect. Uncut and untampered with is now considered 'a condiment' by the companies - and why not, when the customers have already sacrificed so many other pieces of the prize, from quality to pricing? It comes down to the merchant with an exclusive property and dictating to the client how and when it will be released. If MOD was all about getting more choice/more product to the marketplace, i doubt us grumblers would be so vocal. But it's the continuing lowering of standards that irks me most - and while being on the losing side of the argument (altho the right side, still;^)) isn't any fine shakes, I think everyone would be better served to demand better quality OR at least a lower price. All that 'silly nonsense' you quickly discount includes any semblance of quality because a lot of old series/shows are in touchy condition, if not worse.



#22 of 87 OFFLINE   Neil Brock

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Posted October 11 2010 - 02:25 AM



Originally Posted by shoeshineboy 





O-kay, except in your second sentence you've set a standard that nearly all mod (and many real dvd releases, sadly said) don't respect. Uncut and untampered with is now considered 'a condiment' by the companies - and why not, when the customers have already sacrificed so many other pieces of the prize, from quality to pricing? It comes down to the merchant with an exclusive property and dictating to the client how and when it will be released. If MOD was all about getting more choice/more product to the marketplace, i doubt us grumblers would be so vocal. But it's the continuing lowering of standards that irks me most - and while being on the losing side of the argument (altho the right side, still;^)) isn't any fine shakes, I think everyone would be better served to demand better quality OR at least a lower price. All that 'silly nonsense' you quickly discount includes any semblance of quality because a lot of old series/shows are in touchy condition, if not worse.


      As if regular, pressed and packaged discs didn't have problems. The first TV Show DVD that I ever bought and watched was an I Spy episode. I'm watching it and there seems to be a jump cut. I pull out my VHS tape, recorded from a Washington DC station that ran the show uncut in the early 80s and lo and behold, there is a minute and a half missing from a fight scene. So much for integrity of releases.



#23 of 87 OFFLINE   Neil Brock

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Posted October 11 2010 - 02:30 AM



Originally Posted by RickER 

Anti-MOD, all the way baby.


But this forum seems to be PRO MOD, so be it. Doesnt mean its good. If Shout!, E1, and Image can do OK with DVD, and Blu-ray! I do not see why the Big Boys do not want to play.


Premium price, for less. No thanks. The profit margin must be really nice with MOD. PT Barnum would have loved it.


     And how do you know they are doing OK? For all you know, they could be losing their shirts. Image has put out how many shows exactly? I notice you don't mention Smore, Infinity, VCI or any of the others who are all virtually done. Oh, and something else you conveniently neglect to mention - Shout doesn't master anything, they only take what elements are provided to them while the majors do for the most part master the stuff. Big cost difference there.



#24 of 87 OFFLINE   Cowboy

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Posted October 11 2010 - 06:34 AM

If the only way to get more: Hardy Boys,Police Woman,S.W.A.T,Baretta,Flipper,Mod

   Squad,Streets of Sf,Kojak,Mccloud and to release Hec Ramsey,T.H.E. Cat,Harry O,

   Grizzly Adams then bring on Mod.



#25 of 87 OFFLINE   smithb

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Posted October 11 2010 - 07:17 AM

I've picked up a few MOD movies when on sale in sets and I was happy enough with them (watched them right away). However, I have not purchased any MOD TV sets yet. With pressed disks I feel more comfortable about buying now when on sale and available, with the idea that I might not get to them for several years. I don't have the same comfort level with DVD-R's. With MOD's I'd either have to watch right away and/or back them up. That gets into competing storage space requirements and time availability. Of the current TV titles I've noticed released, I would have definitely picked up Flipper season 2 and possible Highway Patrol season 1 if on pressed disks.


I think MOD means lower sales based on current perception, pricing, and distribution. I think for lesser know titles it will go this way because of the lower risk for the studio's even if they don't sell as many. However, I believe popular titles from any era will stay as pressed disks since the reward is so much greater (e.g., more sales, wider distribution via B&M, cheaper production cost, lower sales risk).


It will be interesting when streaming gets more in the mix as well. I like having my own copy, so if streaming will allow them to lower prices by allowing us to download and either play from a media server or create our own disks (with some sort of copy protection or one time copy employed), I might go for that.



#26 of 87 OFFLINE   RickER

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Posted October 11 2010 - 11:18 AM



Originally Posted by Neil Brock




I notice you don't mention Smore, Infinity, VCI or any of the others who are all virtually done. Oh, and something else you conveniently neglect to mention - Shout doesn't master anything, they only take what elements are provided to them while the majors do for the most part master the stuff. Big cost difference there.



I only have 1 movie put out by VCI, Gargoyles. They put that out over 10 years ago! Shoot, they mostly put out PD stuff! I am unfamiliar with the other 2 companies. But, i couldn't imagine anything worse than a Public Domain DVD-R!


And to the first point, of losing their shirts. Yes, i am sure they (Image, Shout!, and the rest) are hurting with slumping sales. But selling DVD-Rs to a niche, of a niche market will not exactly put you on the fast track to success.

Especially since the major studios are keeping the C - Z titles for their own MOD programs, instead of licensing out to Shout!, and the like.


Oh, and i know Shout! doesn't master anything, but then again, neither does anyone else that puts out MOD titles. I would rather have a title on Blu-ray or DVD that has a few scratches on the print for $15 to $20 than the same title on DVD-R for $25! Not EVERYTHING needs a 4K restoration for me to be happy with it on DVD (or Blu)!


Excuse me while i clear a place, on my shelf for Space:1999, on Blu-ray!






#27 of 87 OFFLINE   Neil Brock

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Posted October 11 2010 - 05:32 PM



Originally Posted by Kirben 


-Less durability, DVD-R won't last in the long term. DVD-R are more easily effected by many variables (i.e. discs used, temperature changes), which can cause faults.).


      That argument is as valid as the one people used to use years ago about VHS tapes fading away. All completely baseless and unfounded falsehoods.



#28 of 87 OFFLINE   tvgreats

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Posted October 11 2010 - 06:08 PM



Originally Posted by Neil Brock 




      That argument is as valid as the one people used to use years ago about VHS tapes fading away. All completely baseless and unfounded falsehoods.


 Theres no doubt that dvd-rs are less durable. Thats not even up for debate.  Go to the AV science forum and you can read all kinds of stories on cheap dvd-rs failing.  I have some cheap memorex dvd-rs from 5 years ago that won't play any more.  I also have verbatim dvd-rs from 5 years ago that play fine.  I'm sure the top quality dvd-r will be fine for decades (the jury is still out), but the cheaper brands can and have failed.  And they are definitely less tolerant of dust, high heat, and scratches. Hopefully the studios use top-quality blanks; if thats the case, they should last a long time with proper care.
 




#29 of 87 OFFLINE   DeWilson

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Posted October 11 2010 - 07:12 PM



Originally Posted by tvgreats 




 Theres no doubt that dvd-rs are less durable. Thats not even up for debate.  Go to the AV science forum and you can read all kinds of stories on cheap dvd-rs failing.


You hit the nail on the head! CHEAP dvd-r's is the problem - not the format or consept - do we even know what Warners,Sony and Amazon use?




#30 of 87 OFFLINE   Gary OS

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Posted October 12 2010 - 02:11 AM

    Quote:

Originally Posted by tvgreats 

 Theres no doubt that dvd-rs are less durable. Thats not even up for debate. 



I have to agree.  It's really not up for debate that DVD-Rs are less durable than pressed DVDs.  All the evidence points to there being two primary "downsides" to DVD-R versus standard DVDs.  Firstly, there definititely seems to be much more of a compatibility issue with DVD-Rs.  For whatever reason, they are more apt to not work in certain players than standard DVDs.  Secondly, there also is a durability issue.  The frustrating thing is, it's very hit or miss with DVD-Rs.  As others have said previously, it would appear that the type of media used is the issue.  There are definitely cheaper and poorer brands and that is almost assuredly the reason for failures.

There's just no doubt that its better to have pressed DVDs, and that's my major issue with MOD programs.  Having said that, I have and will continue to buy some of these if the show is important enough to me.  Do I love that I'm being charged more for an inferior product?  No.  And the studios will not get as much money from me as they used to because I'm more leary of the format.  I'll buy some of these, but not at the rate or quantity that I was with SDVDs.

Gary "in the middle on this issue - I'm neither hard core anti or pro when it comes to the MOD programs" O.


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#31 of 87 OFFLINE   younger1968

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Posted October 12 2010 - 02:57 AM



Originally Posted by Gary OS 

    Quote:



I have to agree.  It's really not up for debate that DVD-Rs are less durable than pressed DVDs.  All the evidence points to there being two primary "downsides" to DVD-R versus standard DVDs.  Firstly, there definititely seems to be much more of a compatibility issue with DVD-Rs.  For whatever reason, they are more apt to not work in certain players than standard DVDs.  Secondly, there also is a durability issue.  The frustrating thing is, it's very hit or miss with DVD-Rs.  As others have said previously, it would appear that the type of media used is the issue.  There are definitely cheaper and poorer brands and that is almost assuredly the reason for failures.

There's just no doubt that its better to have pressed DVDs, and that's my major issue with MOD programs.  Having said that, I have and will continue to buy some of these if the show is important enough to me.  Do I love that I'm being charged more for an inferior product?  No.  And the studios will not get as much money from me as they used to because I'm more leary of the format.  I'll buy some of these, but not at the rate or quantity that I was with SDVDs.

Gary "in the middle on this issue - I'm neither hard core anti or pro when it comes to the MOD programs" O.


MOD is the wave of the future then companies will need to sign deal with amazon to ensure these releases are available via their site. Currently, MOD produced in the United States are not available in Canada. So, that will need to change if this is going to take off over time. I think they may also want to look at the technology on improving dvd quality and compatibility, because that is going to be an issue down the road.


I also will not buy to extent that i did in the past when the dvd were pressed. I am not interested in these dvd's wearing out after few plays. I think there are other ways to released dvds and i think it really comes down to re-marketing the shows. The window of opportunity is closing on the classic shows. I think they network should re-focus on releasing complete series or in installments like 1-4 or 5-8, etc.


If you look at those people interested in the classic shows, like 1960s/1970s then you would be around 36-70 years old. If you wait 5 years or more then that market starts to shrink. The new generation of kids is not interested in the old shows, so, it just will not have the market it once did.


I think the network also need to look at licensing the shows to Shout Factory and other similar companies. I think there are better delivery mechanism for the studios then trying to use their existing resources to move shows to dvd.




#32 of 87 OFFLINE   Nebiroth

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Posted October 12 2010 - 02:57 AM



Originally Posted by Neil Brock 




      As if regular, pressed and packaged discs didn't have problems. The first TV Show DVD that I ever bought and watched was an I Spy episode. I'm watching it and there seems to be a jump cut. I pull out my VHS tape, recorded from a Washington DC station that ran the show uncut in the early 80s and lo and behold, there is a minute and a half missing from a fight scene. So much for integrity of releases.


That's down to an error in manufacture or authoring.


What is beyond doubt is that DVDR's lack the robustness of regular pressed discs. Assuming that both are free from flaws in manufacture, then the DVDR is inherently less stable - it has to be, because the data layer is composed of a dye that has to change it's state in order for the disc to do it's job.


We do not know the long term stability of such dyes. We do know, however, that they are much more sensitive to environmental factors.



#33 of 87 OFFLINE   Neil Brock

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Posted October 12 2010 - 03:11 AM



Originally Posted by tvgreats 




 Theres no doubt that dvd-rs are less durable. Thats not even up for debate.  Go to the AV science forum and you can read all kinds of stories on cheap dvd-rs failing.  I have some cheap memorex dvd-rs from 5 years ago that won't play any more.  I also have verbatim dvd-rs from 5 years ago that play fine.  I'm sure the top quality dvd-r will be fine for decades (the jury is still out), but the cheaper brands can and have failed.  And they are definitely less tolerant of dust, high heat, and scratches. Hopefully the studios use top-quality blanks; if thats the case, they should last a long time with proper care.
 



      I have really only used Taiyo Yuden discs and I've burned many thousands of discs and never found a problem. This seems to be such a silly argument. If you are that worried about the type of disc being used, here's a simple solution. After you buy the Burn on Demand set, go to your computer and just make a copy onto a high quality DVD blank. This way, if somehow what you bought is on a crappy disc, you will still have a backup and you are covered for the cost of a few blank discs, which cost very little. Call it an insurance policy that will cost you a couple of dollars.



#34 of 87 OFFLINE   Nebiroth

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Posted October 12 2010 - 03:17 AM



Originally Posted by Neil Brock 




      That argument is as valid as the one people used to use years ago about VHS tapes fading away. All completely baseless and unfounded falsehoods.


This is completely untrue.


First, it is a given that DVDR's are more sensitive to environmental factors; try leaving one in sunlight, for example, and see how long it lasts.


Second, the quality of the dye used in manufacture is of paramount importance. A high-quality dye will probably last many years. The problem is that there are an awful lot of lower quality dyes around, to be found in a variety of discs. Expensive brands are no indicator, they often use rebadged cheap media. This is exactly why a good blank media store will show what type of dye was used ot make the disc.


Now inferior quality discs not only have the risk of failing in the initial write (which for MOD is OK, since it'll simply become a coaster at the studio's expense) but also carry a risk of failing at an indeterminate point in the future because the dye isn't stable. There is certainly plenty of evidence to support the fact that discs can and do spontaneously degrade over time. If that happens, do you get a replacement disc? Will they still be making them then? Can you prove that it wasn't your fault, that you didn't maltreat the disc?


The question is, do the studios use good quality dye discs? Are they even aware of this problem? (Remembering the way that Universal, and others, went to the lowest bidder to get their notoriously bad DVD-18's made). Do they check? And do they check every batch? (Since as I said, brand name offers no protection and dyes can change within brands quite often; that happened when Verbatim, who had a high reputation, went over to using some nasty Korean sourced discs in a brand that previously used quality Japanese ones).


VHS often didn't cause problems because of it's sheer clunkiness. DVD is a precision optical product, and it either works or it doesn't. There is usually no halfway house (aside from the inbuilt error correction).


Even VHS had it;s problems, at it's height when blanks were bulk manufactured cheaply, commercial titles often used those. It would work, but often as not the plastic used to make the tape itself was of inferior quality, and would stretch or alternatively become brittle and inclined to snap. Longevity problems could also arise if the magnetic material was poorly bonded and it owuld flake off, but even then this rarely resulted in a tape becoming unusable. Also, VHS degrades with normal usage anyway.



#35 of 87 OFFLINE   Traveling Matt

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Posted October 12 2010 - 03:38 AM

Check out the DigitalFAQ.com site, written by folks who actually know what they're talking about. Especially...


How Long Do CDs/DVDs/Tapes Last?


DVD Burning and Media Quality Concepts



#36 of 87 OFFLINE   smithb

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Posted October 12 2010 - 03:57 AM


Originally Posted by Neil Brock 


      I have really only used Taiyo Yuden discs and I've burned many thousands of discs and never found a problem.


That brings up the argument of "how do you know" when you have thousands of disks that you don't have problems, Yes, I'm sure you verified the initial burn but how many in your collection haven't been watched in the last year, two years, 5+ years?


While the same can be said with pressed disks, just the basic understanding of how they are created provides us with more hope for longevity. Yes, there have been production issues from time to time (DVD-18's, glue/rot), but these are not inherent to every disk produced. DVD-R's are burned through external means, so they can also be negatively influenced by external forces. Some are better quality then others but environmental conditions can still impact them due to the very nature of how we are able to burn them in the first place.

I use my children's DVD-R's as a perfect example. Kids watch titles over and over and over again. Over the years I have noticed some of the DVD-R's going bad while no pressed DVD's have under the same circumstances. I use only Sony DVD-R's and my children do not have direct access to the disks. So I conclude either age or heat from extended use as the cause.


Now under normal use with proper storage and care I think DVD-R's could last a long time. But they are always going to be a bit suspect when compared to a pressed disk.



#37 of 87 OFFLINE   westumulka

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Posted October 12 2010 - 05:23 AM



Originally Posted by Nebiroth 



The question is, do the studios use good quality dye discs? Are they even aware of this problem? (Remembering the way that Universal, and others, went to the lowest bidder to get their notoriously bad DVD-18's made). Do they check? And do they check every batch? (Since as I said, brand name offers no protection and dyes can change within brands quite often; that happened when Verbatim, who had a high reputation, went over to using some nasty Korean sourced discs in a brand that previously used quality Japanese ones).


I would hope that the major companies (Warner, Sony etc) would do some production checks. However,  I don't work for any of these companies (and I don't know anyone who does work for them in the production of their MOD), I can't confirm this. As there are a few reports (on this very board) where discs have failed and then returned for a disc that does work okay, then I would assume this is the case.
I think that Universal were aware of the problem with the bad dvd-18s, as repressing of titles originally released in that format were changed back to the single sided discs. Took them a while, though.


The post by Traveling Matt certainly is a useful reference - until such a time where we see any further tests on the longevity of this media.



#38 of 87 OFFLINE   shoeshineboy

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Posted October 12 2010 - 07:14 AM

And the debate rages on... I noticed Mr Brock didn't address the question on how the manufacturers/companies now treat their own customers -- where as before, the product often was given some form of revitalization or restoration (that's an extra I suppose), and often were forced to respond to criticism from the customers -- admittedly not with a corrected version (ie fugitive). However, because they were also a partner with the retail outlet, there was a stronger sense of responsibility even if it was mostly artificial. Now, while Warners does respond to issues of malfunctions, there is little to no restoration done -- those movies that recently were archive releases with pristine image had been backlogged for dvd format release.

Hey, i don't argue that this is the wave or that it is a very legitimate means to squeeze out more product (altho i suggest it would mean lower sales/items slated to sell less copies anyways). It's that the customer is being sold short, being given less for more -- and the likes of some who think getting knocked over and held up as being a blessing. Employees of big companies would turn to a union if their employer was treating them this way -- giving them less, taking more and treating them as disposable... Not that unionized customers is my idea, but the selfish interests of a few seem to be driving the market down the sewer.

Gotta have my Joe McDoakes shorts, and now! It is to laugh...



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Posted October 12 2010 - 07:26 AM



Originally Posted by Traveling Matt 

Check out the DigitalFAQ.com site, written by folks who actually know what they're talking about. Especially...


How Long Do CDs/DVDs/Tapes Last?


DVD Burning and Media Quality Concepts


Interesting that this seems to be glossed over by the posters.  This is enough for me, plus I can't speak for the others here, but I don't typically leave my DVD player out in the sun, improperly store my discs, or other torture of my player or DVD discs.  In fact, I'd wager that pretty much everyone here takes painstaking steps to care for their equipment and media, thus rending moot the arguments that careless storing of media will render the discs useless.  Have I had problems with playback of DVD-R recorded media?  Yes, but I just try playing it in a different DVD player, and that solves the problem in about 99% of the instances.  If you are asking for 100% foolproof playback of any optical media in any DVD player then I think you're asking for too much.



#40 of 87 OFFLINE   westumulka

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Posted October 12 2010 - 07:26 AM

As always, it's down to a choice: you either purchase the titles you want on an (largely) unproven media, or you pass on it. I am quite happy to wait with most of these as I agree in that I think they are overpriced - however it's a free market and if people want to buy them at these rates then that's their choice.

As the major studios have seen the sales of their dvd titles decline (and retail outlets in the US reducing their shelves to dvds), I guess they are trying to make as much profit as they can for as little outlay as possible. The MOD program seems to achieve this.