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Simultaneous Optical and Analog Connections


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#1 of 19 OFFLINE   flycaster

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Posted July 09 2010 - 10:20 AM

I've got a Yamaha rxv-800 that will be used in conjunction with a Panasonic BD85 bluray player.  As there can not be an hdmi connection between the two, I would like to use both optical dig (for CD/DVD music) and analog connections (for BD movies) for my 5.1 sound system.  It is my limited understanding that by doing so, I may run into a sound compromising situation unless the Yamaha can separate sound level trims between the digital and analog inputs (BTW, I am not an audiophile, but would like to have "good" sound).  I believe this means that the Yamaha will have to be able to boost the SW without altering the already calibrated sound levels for the digital input.


If I sound confused, I am; but I hope, nonetheless,  that someone will understand my question:  Is the Yamaha rxv 800 capable of boosting SW levels while not disturbing the digital sound calibrations?  And, if it isn't, what do you suggest I do?  Thanks.



#2 of 19 OFFLINE   gene c

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Posted July 09 2010 - 12:32 PM

Not only is the RXV-800 unable to set different sub woofer sound levels between the 6 channel analog inputs and the other inputs, it can't adjust the sub woofer level at all. There is an LFE Level Adjustment for both Dolby (-20 to 0) and DTS (-10 to + 10) (see pg 42) which should be set to the highest settings.


In my experience there is a problem with low output levels of the sub woofer output through the 6 ch inputs. You can set the sub output level to the highest setting in the Panasonic 85's speaker setup menu and turn the volume level up on the sub woofer itself each time you use the 85 but that probably won't be enough. It hasen't been for me.


To help eliminate this problem I bought a used Audiocontrol Rialto 7 band equilizer with 2 sub woofer bands (5.2) and hooked it up between my OPPO BluRay player and H/K 7200. The Rialto, and the similar Bijou, run from $150 to $300 on ebay, etc.  Rane also made similar products but I prefer Audiocontrol.



"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#3 of 19 OFFLINE   flycaster

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Posted July 10 2010 - 02:21 AM

Thanks for the reply, gene c.  I think I understand most of what you are saying, but as I'm not going for any more gear, I'd appreciate your help with my muddling through on just how to do what you are suggesting by referring to page 42.


1.  One of the things that I never undrestood with this AVR was that when I would up the volume, the dB would actually go to lower -dB levels.  That is, let's say for example that my normal listening volume level was -45db (as indicated on the Yamaha's display) and I made the sound louder, the level would go to -35dB.  I would never get into a +dB level.  Just seems strange that the volume scale was always negative and didn't go from + towards - ???  Although going from a higher - to a lower - is in the positive direction???


2.  So in order to do your suggestion: "There is an LFE Level Adjustment for both Dolby (-20 to 0) and DTS (-10 to + 10) (see pg 42) which should be set to the highest settings," I'm assuming that Dolby at 0 and DTS at +10 would be the highest settings???


3.  Referring to #2, how do I know that I'm making adjustments in Dolby or in DTS?  Do I have to change input/output modes on the Yamaha, or does it depend on whether or not a disk is playing Dolby or DTS?  And if I have to set a certain mode to make the adjustments, how is that setting made? Obviously quite confused here.


4.  And my last bit of confusion (at the moment) lies in the NOTES section "When you adjust the output level with LEVEL, the settings you made with the test tone will be changed." I think I understand, but I'm not sure.  OK, so my speakers have been previously calibrated  with a sound meter to give equal sound pressure to my viewing/listening point. I now, as you suggest, set the all the speakers to higher dB levels using LEVEL.  Does the above statement merely mean that I've upped (changed) the test tone calibrated levels by the increased dB's via the LEVEL adjustments, or does it mean something else?  For example here's what I'm thinking:  Test tone calibrated level for a speaker is 75dB, and is now adjusted via the LEVEL, and now reads 85dB.  Is this adjusted increase in dB what is being referred to as the "change in test tone will be changed?"



#4 of 19 OFFLINE   gene c

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Posted July 10 2010 - 05:07 AM

1) Theoretically, 0 is "reference" level (I'm not sure exactly what reference level actually refers to) so -10 would be 10 decibles less than reference, hence the negative indicator. And remember, -35 is bigger (or louder) than -45 /img/vbsmilies/htf/smile.gif .


2) Correct, 0 for Dolby and + 10 for DTS. Now this a just a suggestion in order to get the loudest volume from your sub woofer. If it turns out to be too loud, which is un-likely, then reduce those settings accordingly.


3) Since the adjustments are made in the setup menu I don't think it matters what input is currently selected.


4) It appears that when you change the volume level of a particular speaker using the Level adjustment that the adjustment made with the test tone is also changed.


BTW, I don't recall suggesting that you up the levels of all the speakers in either the Panasonic or Yamaha's setup menu's. In fact, lowering the volumes of each individual speaker would in essence have the same effect as increasing the sub woofer volume. In other words, if you can't raise the sub woofer volume to match that of the other speaker then lowering the volume of those other speakers and increasing the master volume would produce the same result. But it would put a much higher strain on the Yamaha's amplifier.


The issue of low sub woofer output via the 6-8 ch analog inputs first came known with SACD and especially DVD-A but the problem is the same with a BR player connected via the 6 ch in's. Don't forget to look into the Panasonics setup menu to see if there is an adjustment there that might help.


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#5 of 19 OFFLINE   flycaster

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Posted July 11 2010 - 05:42 AM

So, to put it all together:

1.  Presently, my speakers are all equally trim...done when first setting up 5.1

2.  I will use Yamaha LEVEL (via setup menu) just to increase sub volume...0 for Dolby and +10 for  DTS, as long as these settings don't distort the bass from the sub.  My mis-intrpretation about enhancing the other speakers.

3.  If I'm having a problem trying to calibrate for both optical and analog, I will then listen to each one separately to see if I can really tell a difference.  If I can, then I will go with the one that sounds best.  If I can't tell the difference, then I'll probably go with optical over analog...unless I find myself using media for which optical doesn't deliver



#6 of 19 OFFLINE   gene c

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Posted July 11 2010 - 11:49 AM

The only problem I see with raising the LFE to 0 and + 10 to help compensate for the low sub woofer output through the analogs is it might make the volume too high with a digital input. Be prepared for this when switching to a digital input. You may have to physically increase the volume (gain) on the sub woofer each time you use the analog input and decrease it again when switching to a digital input. Hope it all works for you.


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#7 of 19 OFFLINE   flycaster

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Posted July 11 2010 - 11:25 PM

Thanks for the heads-up, gene C.  Although I haven't set it up yet, I do believe that I should be able to program my Harmony1 remote control to handle the sub volume control when stwitching between digital and analog.  Whick I think brings up my las "clarification" question:  How is the switching between digital and analog done?  I've got the optical cable going to optical input for the Yamaha's DVD mode, but the analog input cable just go to the "undesignated" 6ch jack input.  So, my confusion lies in knowing when to adjust for digital and when to adjust for analog; or is it simply dependent on a digital (CDs) vs an analog source (movies) ?



#8 of 19 OFFLINE   gene c

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Posted July 12 2010 - 10:27 AM

Changing from digital to analog is as simple as choosing your input. On the back of yoyr receiver optical input #5 is pre-assigned to the DVD input. The 6 ch analog input is pre-assigned and has it's own button on the remote. Simply changing from the DVD input (digital)  to the 6 CH  input automatically changes the digital connection to the analog one.


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#9 of 19 OFFLINE   flycaster

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Posted July 13 2010 - 06:27 AM

Just love the reply; it will certainly make life easier.  So, when playing CD or DVD music, all I have to choose is the DVD input and leave my SW as is.  When doing a bluray movie, I put the input onto DVD and depress the 6ch button.  I imagine that selecting 6ch will take presidence over optical dig as they are being selected to come out of the same output mode?  Or is it that the 6ch selection simply cuts out further Yamaha control?  And if this be the case, I will need to reset the SW prior to the selection of 6ch???

In any event, with a little more clarification for the above, I think that I now have it all as far as setting up the sound for the BD85; and this should still be easy to program with my Harmony1.  The only thing that I note that I would have liked to have been able to do was use the Yamaha's DPSs while in analog, but unfortunately I don't think that I can.



#10 of 19 OFFLINE   gene c

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Posted July 13 2010 - 10:06 AM

You wouldn't choose the DVD and the 6 CH input you would choose the DVD input to access the digital (optical) connection or the 6 CH input to access the analog connection.


And yes, that's one of the problems with the 6 channel analog connection, the receiver pretty much acts as a volume controler only. No Bass/Treble controls, DSP's, Bass Management or any sound processing. That's why I bought an external 7 channel equilizer. There are a very few receivers that allow audio processing thru the multi ch analog inputs. The Pioneer Elite 59txi and Outlaw 1070 are two that I know of. The H/K 7200 and 525 will allow only Bass Management.


My guess is you will have to crank up the volume on the sub with the 6 ch input and lower it again for the digital input. And yes, it will be a PITA but....


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#11 of 19 OFFLINE   flycaster

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Posted July 13 2010 - 11:14 AM

"You wouldn't choose the DVD and the 6 CH input you would choose the DVD input to access the digital (optical) connection or the 6 CH input to access the analog connection. "


At last, at last, I got it all.  The reason for selecting the DVD input is 1) for sound that is processed by the Yamaha - such as CDs and HDDVDs, 2) and if I was also passing the pciture through the Yamaha to the TV.  However, when selecting 6 CH, the Yamaha will pass DB85 processed sound through to the speakers via analogs - eventhough DVD is the selected input.  Obviously, under these conditions - DVD input with both optical and analogs connected, the analogs with take presidence.  Also, I think that the analog sound will be lossless, although many have said that they really can't tell the difference in sound between lossless and lossy...well. we'll soon see, or is that hear.

Just had to write all this down so that I made sure I would understand what was happening.


Anyway, Gene C, thanks again many times over for sticking with me.



#12 of 19 OFFLINE   gene c

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Posted July 13 2010 - 12:20 PM

"However, when selecting 6 CH, the Yamaha will pass DB85 processed sound through to the speakers via analogs - eventhough DVD is the selected input.  Obviously, under these conditions - DVD input with both optical and analogs connected, the analogs with take presidence." 


I'm not sure you quite understand it yet. You are correct that thru the Optical (or coaxial digital) connection the receiver does the decoding and thru the multi ch analog inputs the player does the decoding. However, with both optical and analog inputs connected the analogs do not take presidence. What takes presidence is whichever input you select, DVD for optical or 6 CH for analog. Each has it's own button on your remote. If you wish to use the analog input there is no reason to select the digital (DVD) input first.


BTW, I certainly feel there is a noticable difference between lossless and lossy. The fact that thru the 6 ch input you cannot take advantge of your receivers adjustments/processing may delute that difference to some degree.


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#13 of 19 OFFLINE   flycaster

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Posted July 14 2010 - 12:11 AM

OK, guess I don't have it all, but I know I'm getting close and I now see wherein lies my confusion about the "presidence" issue.  Simply put, I wasn't thinking clearly.

Assuming I'm playing a BD, for some strange reason I was thinking that I had to select DVD on the Yamaha to get the picture on the TV; and if so, my clouded, confused mind assumed that the Yamaha would allow 6ch when I then selected 6ch...DUH! Of course, the picture is directly directed to the TV from the BD85 via their hdmi connection. There is no need to select DVD, just 6ch and the proper output on the TV.  However, I will select DVD when playing music, which will pass via the optical (coax) cable from the BD to the Yamaha.

BTW, how are DVD-HD disks handled: 6ch or DVD?


#14 of 19 OFFLINE   gene c

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Posted July 14 2010 - 09:41 AM

Not sure what you mean by DVD-HD. Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio, the best audio formats available, would be accessed from the 6 ch analog input and decoded by the BR player.


There are also a couple of newer and less known formats called Dolby Digital Plus and DTS HD. Are these the ones you were asking about? They can both be accessed from the DVD input (optical connection). These new digital formats are better than the old Dolby Digital and DTS Surround Sound but not as good as TrueHD and Master Audio. They are not found on all thay many discs either.

"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#15 of 19 OFFLINE   flycaster

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Posted July 14 2010 - 10:19 AM

"Not sure what you mean by DVD-HD."  My error, I was thinking of the "old" HD-DVDs, which obviously won't play on the BD85.  However, I imagine regular DVD movies will play and the sound will be via optical.



#16 of 19 OFFLINE   gene c

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Posted July 14 2010 - 12:59 PM

That's what I figured. BTW, the Panasonic 85 also has internal Dolby and DTS decoders so it will decode and output those formats out the 6 CH analogs as well. But I bet the optical output would sound better.


By now you should either be well informed /img/vbsmilies/htf/chatter.gif or completely confused /img/vbsmilies/htf/confused.gif . Hope it's the former /img/vbsmilies/htf/smile.gif .


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#17 of 19 OFFLINE   flycaster

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Posted July 15 2010 - 01:27 AM

Got it, a piece of cake (LOL).


Are you saying that the optical will sound better than the analogs for DTS and Dolby because the processing will be done by the Yamaha rather than the BD85?  If so, then this means that for DVDs and CDs, the sound output will be via optical. Hey, this stuff is not so bad as long as one has some tutoring along the way.  Thanks again.



#18 of 19 OFFLINE   gene c

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Posted July 15 2010 - 02:05 PM

It's not that the 85 isn't as good as the Yamaha at processing Dolby Digital and DTS, it's that through the optical connection you can apply bass mangt, bass/treble controls, etc. Those things can make a significant difference.


"Everyday room": Panasonic 58" Plasma, Dish HD DVR, Pioneer Elite vsx-23, BDP-23 BR, dv58avi universal dvd player, Paradigm Studio 20 V1, CC-450, Dayton HSU-10 subwoofer.

"Movie/Music room": Toshiba 65" DLP, Dish HD receiver, Marantz 7005, CC-4003, BD-7006, Polk LSI25's-LSi7's-LSiC, 2 original Dayton 10" "Mighty-Mites" subwoofers. (subject to change without notice).
 
Also have  MB Quart Vera VS05 +.....too much to list. Help me.
 
 

 


#19 of 19 OFFLINE   flycaster

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Posted July 15 2010 - 10:58 PM




Originally Posted by gene c 

It's not that the 85 isn't as good as the Yamaha at processing Dolby Digital and DTS, it's that through the optical connection you can apply bass mangt, bass/treble controls, etc. Those things can make a significant difference.


Agreed.