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Pleasantly surprised with the Sony SA-W3000 sub!


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#1 of 14 OFFLINE   SQMonte

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Posted March 12 2010 - 06:45 PM

I just bought a new HT setup (see sig) and moved my old setup into my bedroom. The sub I had for the old setup, Onkyo SKW-204, left much to be desired but it fit perfectly in my space challenged living room so I figured I'd leave it there for the time being and just buy a new one for the room. I didn't want to spend much money at all so I decided on the Sony SA-W3000 for $129 at B&H Photo Video.

Not gonna lie, it was extremely hard for me to spend the money for this sub because I kinda felt that if I were to spend a little more that I could have a better sub. While that is still applicable, I have to admit that I got way more sub than I anticipated! When I first unboxed it and seen how big it was I was taken aback. I didn't realize it was as big as it is, but that wasn't necessarily a bad thing. My Onkyo sub is 8", this one is 10", and since the Onkyo had a hard time filling my large living room I figured I'd probably have better luck with the Sony....the fact that it matched the receiver was a plus too:)

So I kept the Sony for the living room and put the Onkyo in my room. When the Onkyo was in the living room I'd have to have it's volume maxed out and the sub output level on the receiver maxed out in order to get any decent output from it and even still it wasn't satisfying. Now that I have the Sony, which is 50 watts less than the Onkyo, the volume knob is only 2/3 up and the sub level output on the receiver is at 0 (range is -10 thru 10) and the output is incredible! I'm knocking pictures down on the shelf that's right next to it and rattling things throughout the house! SQ wise I have no complaints, it hits low, hits hard, and has excellent cone control and it fills up my living room with ease.

My expectations for this thing was about as low as could be, I was already planning a DIY sub build but after hearing this thing I am scrapping the idea. I am satisfied and then some with this sub and highly recommend it to anyone looking for a decent sub on a very low budget.

T.V. - Vizio VF551XVT                             Cable - Comcast/Motorola DCX3400
A/V Receiver - Sony STR-DN1000            BluRay - Vizio VBR110
Speakers - Main - Insignia NS-B2111     Center Ch. - Onkyo SKC-540C
Sub - Sony SA-W3000

#2 of 14 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 13 2010 - 01:27 AM


I'm glad you enjoy your sub.  Please don't listen to a better one or it will taint your opinion of yours.

A properly built DIY sub will crush the Sony.

Your sub isn't big until you can fall into it.
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#3 of 14 OFFLINE   Philip Hamm

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Posted March 13 2010 - 06:21 AM

Sony speakers in general are suprisingly good values in my experience.  They are not audiophile grade, but they offer a lot of bang for the buck. 
Philip Hamm
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#4 of 14 OFFLINE   SQMonte

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Posted March 13 2010 - 07:16 AM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_J 

I'm glad you enjoy your sub.  Please don't listen to a better one or it will taint your opinion of yours.

A properly built DIY sub will crush the Sony.

Your sub isn't big until you can fall into it.
With an ass as big as mine, I don't think I'll ever have that problem/img/vbsmilies/htf/blush.gif

Ya know, I have a pair of Image Dynamics ID12's in my garage that aren't doing anything but collecting dust. I'm very tempted to use one of them for a DIY sub project. They are dual 2 ohm subs so I could wire one to 4 ohms and buy a plate amp from PE that does 250-350 rms @ 4 ohms and would be set. Do you think that sub has the potential to outperform my Sony, given a properly and well built enclosure?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip Hamm 

Sony speakers in general are suprisingly good values in my experience.  They are not audiophile grade, but they offer a lot of bang for the buck. 
I am definitely surprised at how much better this thing sounds compared to my Onkyo SKW-204, can't say I thought that's how things would work out but my gf wanted a sub for the room so we bought a super cheap one and couldn't be happier.

T.V. - Vizio VF551XVT                             Cable - Comcast/Motorola DCX3400
A/V Receiver - Sony STR-DN1000            BluRay - Vizio VBR110
Speakers - Main - Insignia NS-B2111     Center Ch. - Onkyo SKC-540C
Sub - Sony SA-W3000

#5 of 14 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 13 2010 - 03:32 PM

Find the Theile/Small parameters for the drivers and post them.  We can go through the process and see how the modeling software predicts the response and output.

#6 of 14 OFFLINE   SQMonte

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Posted March 14 2010 - 06:22 AM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_J 

Find the Theile/Small parameters for the drivers and post them.  We can go through the process and see how the modeling software predicts the response and output.
Sweet, here they are

Image Dynamics ID12d2v.3



Let me know what you think...my other options are to buy either a Dayton MkIII Titanic 12" or an Audiopulse Epic 12"


T.V. - Vizio VF551XVT                             Cable - Comcast/Motorola DCX3400
A/V Receiver - Sony STR-DN1000            BluRay - Vizio VBR110
Speakers - Main - Insignia NS-B2111     Center Ch. - Onkyo SKC-540C
Sub - Sony SA-W3000

#7 of 14 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 14 2010 - 08:48 AM

What is the maximum size of an enclosure you can live with?  Remember they can go as large as a refrigerator.  Otherwise the parameters look good at first glance.

Titanic or Epic?  They are very different subs when you look closer at them.  The Titanic is a general purpose sub while the Epic is geared towards sound quality.  With the TC Sounds price increases, I would recommend the AV series drivers from AE Speakers if the ID sub doesn't work out.

#8 of 14 OFFLINE   SQMonte

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Posted March 14 2010 - 12:12 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_J 

What is the maximum size of an enclosure you can live with?  Remember they can go as large as a refrigerator.  Otherwise the parameters look good at first glance.

Titanic or Epic?  They are very different subs when you look closer at them.  The Titanic is a general purpose sub while the Epic is geared towards sound quality.  With the TC Sounds price increases, I would recommend the AV series drivers from AE Speakers if the ID sub doesn't work out.
Max specs would be

14w x 15d x as tall as necessary

So do you think the Titanic would not be a good choice? The Epic is only $30 more than the Titanic, do you think that's a bad choice too? I looked at the AV12 and it's the same price as the Epic but what stood out to me is that it's rated at 1000w, I think that's alot of speaker for what i'm going to do with it and how much power i'm going to have.

Any other suggestions as to what would do well in 12" size, would do well with 350-500 watts rms and is preferably under $200


T.V. - Vizio VF551XVT                             Cable - Comcast/Motorola DCX3400
A/V Receiver - Sony STR-DN1000            BluRay - Vizio VBR110
Speakers - Main - Insignia NS-B2111     Center Ch. - Onkyo SKC-540C
Sub - Sony SA-W3000

#9 of 14 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 15 2010 - 01:32 AM

The Titanic has a 3" voice coil.  That's great for power handling in a car when you use a 1,000w amp.  It also gives it a very high inductance.  What does that mean?  Without any EQ, you will have a hump in the sub's response that hits in the 50 to 60hz range.  If you read the details of the 500w and 1000w Dayton amps, they have a special setting inside the amp to combat this inductance hump in the response.

The AV series is a 2.5" voice coil which has automatically means lower inductance.  John does some other stuff to lower inductance even further.  The Epic is a 2" voice coil based on the TC2+ motor structure.  Same thing as the AV, smaller voice coil mean lower inductance.  Plus they also do those things in the motor that John does to lower inductance even more.  Why am I discussing inductance so much?  http://www.stereoint...WooferSpeed.pdf

But as you can see, the smaller the voice coil, the lower the power handling.  Guess what?  It doesn't matter.  In home theater settings, most of the time we never reach the thermal limits of a sub so the power handling doesn't matter.


#10 of 14 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 16 2010 - 11:43 AM

Ran some quick numbers on the ID sub.  With a PE amp, 2.5 cubic feet sealed looks very good.  Ported you need 4.25 cubic and an Fb (tuning frequency of the enclosure) of 20hz.  These will handle the 240w PE amp with ease in either design. 

#11 of 14 OFFLINE   SQMonte

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Posted March 16 2010 - 04:32 PM



Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_J 

The Titanic has a 3" voice coil.  That's great for power handling in a car when you use a 1,000w amp.  It also gives it a very high inductance.  What does that mean?  Without any EQ, you will have a hump in the sub's response that hits in the 50 to 60hz range.  If you read the details of the 500w and 1000w Dayton amps, they have a special setting inside the amp to combat this inductance hump in the response.

The AV series is a 2.5" voice coil which has automatically means lower inductance.  John does some other stuff to lower inductance even further.  The Epic is a 2" voice coil based on the TC2+ motor structure.  Same thing as the AV, smaller voice coil mean lower inductance.  Plus they also do those things in the motor that John does to lower inductance even more.  Why am I discussing inductance so much?  http://www.stereoint...WooferSpeed.pdf

But as you can see, the smaller the voice coil, the lower the power handling.  Guess what?  It doesn't matter.  In home theater settings, most of the time we never reach the thermal limits of a sub so the power handling doesn't matter.
Thanks for the explanation, helps me see things a little more clearly now.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_J 

Ran some quick numbers on the ID sub.  With a PE amp, 2.5 cubic feet sealed looks very good.  Ported you need 4.25 cubic and an Fb (tuning frequency of the enclosure) of 20hz.  These will handle the 240w PE amp with ease in either design. 
What are the pro's/con's of ported vs. sealed sub boxes for HT setups? Will running a sealed sub box give me noticeably less bass output vs. the ported design?


T.V. - Vizio VF551XVT                             Cable - Comcast/Motorola DCX3400
A/V Receiver - Sony STR-DN1000            BluRay - Vizio VBR110
Speakers - Main - Insignia NS-B2111     Center Ch. - Onkyo SKC-540C
Sub - Sony SA-W3000

#12 of 14 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 16 2010 - 11:05 PM

The ported vs. sealed debate has been going on for years.  If there was a clear winner, then all subs would be made that way.  But here's what I think.

Sealed Sub Advantages:
Smaller - it doesn't need as large of an enclosure to properly work.
Sounds better - A lot of people say this but they are comparing sealed subs to retail ported subs that are tuned too high and sound boomy.  Other people may be discussing the group delay of the ports.  They are just slightly out of phase with the driver.  Some people can hear this while others can't.
Doesn't need a sub-sonic filter - the air in the box acts as a natural spring to keep the driver from going into over-excursion.

Ported Sub Advantages:
More efficient - Hoffman's Iron Law best explains it - http://ldsg.snippets...x-a.php#HOFFMAN
Play lower - This is similar to more efficient but I consider it an advantage all its own.   A sealed sub has a shallow roll-off as the frequencies get lower but this roll-off can start as high as 80hz.  A properly built ported sub can be flat to the tuning frequency (20hz in this case) but the roll-off below 20hz is very steep.


#13 of 14 OFFLINE   SQMonte

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Posted March 17 2010 - 04:50 AM

I've run sealed boxes in a few different car audio setups i've had but never had a sealed speaker in a HT system ever so i'm interested to see/hear what that would sound like. Do you design boxes? If so, how much would you charge me to design a sealed box to the specs you listed above? I'd be building out of 3/4" birch and definitely want a double baffle, beyond that i'm open for suggestions.

T.V. - Vizio VF551XVT                             Cable - Comcast/Motorola DCX3400
A/V Receiver - Sony STR-DN1000            BluRay - Vizio VBR110
Speakers - Main - Insignia NS-B2111     Center Ch. - Onkyo SKC-540C
Sub - Sony SA-W3000

#14 of 14 OFFLINE   Robert_J

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Posted March 17 2010 - 11:30 PM

I'll play around with designs and help you but I'm not going to do the work for you.  Building boxes is the only thing that keeps my 11th grade geometry skills sharp after 20 plus years.  Volume is base x width x height.  One cubic foot is 1728 cubic inches.  3/4" birch plywood isn't really 3/4" inch thick.  Make some of the panels long and trim them with a router and flush trim bit.

I'd build an 18" cube using this as my guide - http://www.creatives...Cube-plans3.pdf